BBC 6 Music to close down!
Posted by Radiocafé on 26 Feb 2010 at 12:43 am |
Category: 1. General Music
UPDATE - 26 February 2010:
The BBC is set to close the unpopular BBC 6 Music, as part of sweeping changes to TV and radio services which are to be announced next month. The Times is also reporting that the BBC Trust has acknowledged that “it must pick up more listeners over the age of 65 and become more distinctive“, with the review ordering “Bob Shennan, the station controller, to air more jazz“.
Our article from 2008 (below) highlighted some of the failings of 6 Music - we are not surprised this decision has been made. It also seems that the message of supporters of the Campaign For Real Music is getting through at last, as we have been lobbying the BBC for several years regarding its music policy, which overlooks many of us entirely. Hopefully this is set to change soon, and we will see more dance bands, light music and American popular song featured on BBC radio.
These are interesting times for those of us who care passionately about music and radio, and the cause of real music. Now is the time to keep up the momentum and ensure that the BBC does what we know it can do better than any other - provide the very best quality music programming for a discerning audience.
We look forward to hearing your views on this important decision.
Radiocafe
February 26 2010
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ORIGINAL ARTICLE FROM 2008
According to RAJAR (the people who work out how many people are listening to what stations), BBC 6 Music forms a one fifth of one per cent share of the radio we listen to. To put that in a bit more perspective, as of June ‘07, BBC Radio 2 is listened to about 63 times more than BBC 6 Music.
Why does BBC’s fellow digital-only station BBC7, which provides re-runs of old comedies, get almost twice as many listeners as 6 Music?
What in fact does BBC 6 Music do?
Okay, so the station has won a few awards, and this article is not here to knock the quality of its programming or presenters (although if you have any particular thoughts, do let us know). As the first national music radio station to be launched by the BBC in 32 years, albeit only through digital sources, the question we ask is what does it provide that isn’t already catered for elsewhere?
As Radio 2 goes from strength to strength, if you care about figures, which the BBC clearly does, there are many of us out here who are starting to suspect we may have been subject to a rather sophisticated confidence trick.
You see, in the old days it was easy to work out what each of the stations did. Radio 1 was clearly a pop music station, aimed towards the youth market. The station gave us poptastic DJs, roadshows, a production line of presenters for Top of the Pops and a daily mix of the latest chart music, plus some more focused music shows in the evenings. Radio 3 provided the classical music, Radio 4 all the talk, which left Radio 2 to serve up things such as comedy, easy listening, light music, big band, dance bands, country, folk and other specialist music.
But over the years, as listening figures became the priority, those who grew up listening to Radio 1 - and many of its presenters - have long since migrated to Radio 2. The figures for Radio 1 may have declined, but the BBC’s statisticians are happy, since the figures for Radio 2 have gradually increased, as have the number of “pat on the back” awards from the industry to itself.
But here’s the trick. If, say, I was 15 in 1985, and therefore likely to be one of the BBC’s Radio 1 demographic back then, the BBC now caters for me as I approach the age of 40, by serving up a Radio 2 which plays the kind of music which Peter Powell and DLT spun on Radio 1 back in the 80s. But Radio 2 has gone further, to also try and attract today’s 20-somethings, and it has further increased the youth appeal. This means disgruntled Radio 1 listeners can also join the new, younger, BBC Radio 2 big happy family.
So here is the problem. What if I was approaching 40 back in the 1980s, was a Radio 2 listener then, and am now entering my pension years? What if I grew up with the Light Programme, and am now well into retirement? Or what if I just happened to like easy listening, light music, big band, dance bands, country, folk and other specialist music, irrespective of my age? What if I am a teenager who likes Vic Damone and Julie London and am not into the Sugababes and Atomic Kitten?
Let’s take a closer look, then, at what the BBC offers for this group of listeners. Say I want to listen to some easy listening, perhaps the classic vocalists of the 1950s and 1960s. Radio 2 has David Jacobs from 11-midnight on a Sunday and… is that it? Light music - let’s take a look… where is it? I won’t find any at all. Big bands and dance bands? About an hour a week across all stations. And the same story for other specialist music too. Even soul music gets only a handful of hours across the BBC networks.
I wonder if those who control the stations are perhaps fans of rock and pop? Because BBC Radio 2 plays this genre for the vast majority of the time, and BBC 6 Music is clearly a rock and pop station with a couple of token gestures to other types of music. Which seems strange, given that the majority of commercial stations out there, national and digital, all seem to play… rock and pop.
What about those of us who do not want rock and pop all the time? What about those of us who quite liked Radio 2 as it used to be, but accept and appreciate that times move on and the station needs to change, but in a digital age of plenty feel that we are being offered nothing?
If you try writing to the BBC to tell them this, as hundreds of us have done, they are delighted to receive your comments and then tell you about all the wonderful things that are coming up on BBC Radio 2 and the BBC’s new digital stations. So when you ask them for more light music, classic vocalists and so on, the best you are likely to achieve is more rock and pop.
Come on, BBC, you can do better than this. You are the broadcaster that created the BBC Radio Orchestra, the BBC Big Band and the BBC Concert Orchestra. You introduced us to fantastic presenters such as Alan Dell, Steve Race and Benny Green. You gave us the likes of John Dunn and Ray Moore each and every day. Plus you allowed those of us who don’t want to listen to rock and pop all the time a mix of light and easy music which is all but extinct from your current programming.
We are not saying you should replace BBC 6 Music with something for us, as we know what it is like to have something we enjoy taken away, and this would be unfair to others. All we are asking for is to be given something to replace what we have lost.
Just a small, simple digital station, playing a mix of light and easy music, with a smattering of vocalists such as Bennett and Sinatra, perhaps some dance bands and big bands, served up by proper broadcasters with years of experience in radio. We don’t even mind if you recycle some shows of old, as you have done so well with BBC 7. The USA will show you how, too, just take a quick look at the immensely popular Music of Your Life network.
And, when you do, there are thousands of us out here with nothing to listen to who will be more than happy to help improve your listening statistics.
Radiocafe
January 2008
(7 votes, average: 4.43 out of 5)
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I agree completely, there are many of us out here who are not being catered for by the BBC any more. I would like to see a new station playing some light music, which is long overdue, especially since Radio 3 stopped its one hour a week show.
Thanks for your comment David. Goodness knows why the BBC chose to remove Brian Kaye’s Light Programme from its Radio 3 schedules, hopefully we’ll see it return one day soon though. There are plenty of people over at the Farnon Society who are upset by this and doing there best to campaign for its re-instatement.
Paul
I’m also disappointed by the BBC. Yes Radio 2 is doing very well, so we are told. But it is completely focused at one audience, and the BBC provides nothing for the many of us out here who want to hear Robert Farnon and Eric Coates and some of the great singers of years bygone. You have my full support - let us know if you get anywhere with the BBC!
Thanks James - the more people like you that provide some support, the more likely that the BBC may listen to our simple requests for more of our kind of music on the BBC radio.
Paul
There are plenty of us out here who support you - will spread the word!
Thanks David - we appreciate your support.
Happy to be part of the campaign
Paul, good luck with the campaign, but I think the BBC is a lumbering dinosaur that will not be able to respond to people like you and me who were Radio 1 listeners 20 years ago. My view is that the future for non-pop music is through specialist stations, digitally delivered by low-cost operations. There’s tons on Internet stations pumping out all sorts now.
I worked as a freelancer with the BBC Radio Orchestra back in the early 80s and as a youngster it was a great introduction to a repertoire that was not so familiar to me. I am delighted today to see serious interest in this music and a growing catalogue of CDs being made available.
Just last week, whilst tidying the garage I found a few old cassette tapes of shows that I must have recorded off the radio, to listen to at a later date (25 years later!). I just cannot understand why this music is not allowed an airing today?
My wife Rosemary Lundberg ( viola ) and I were members of the Radio Orch for many years between 1971 - 1992 . We worked with many conductors and arrangers including Neil Richardson . There is nothing quite like that sound on the BBC now which is a shame for younger listeners who may appreciate that quality of light music . Bill Turner ( trumpet - Radio Big Band )
Really good to hear from some of you who were part of the magnificent Radio Orchestra - we agree thet nothing matched that wonderful BBC sound.
So many of us share your frustrations that there is no such music on air these days. I started listening to the Radio Orchestra in my early teens, and got hooked then, but nowadays it seems image is often more important than talent. The music that the likes of Neil Richardson and John Fox produced in those days was in a class of its own, and it’s really good to hear from those of you who helped produce these magical broadcasts.
However, what the BBC did in the late 80s / early 90s is nothing less than shameful. When the Radio Orchestra was put to rest, much of the heart and soul was stolen from UK radio, and the Radio 2 controllers set out to remove many of its estalblished presenters and shows. We cannot understand why it is that still, to this day, we have virtually no light or orchestral music on mainstream radio. Even the paltry one hour on Radio 3 was cancelled.
At least we do, as you say, have access to a growing catalogue of light music on CD, much of it courtesy of Mike Dutton over at Vocalion. But wouldn’t it be great to hear some of Steve Race’s Radio Orchestra shows re-broadcast, or some of the light concerts which formed the mainstay of weekend listening on Radio 2 of a weekend evening throughout the 70s and 80s? Unfortunately, is unlikely to ever happen.
So make sure you preserve those tape recordings, as these shows were gems (and we suspect the BBC won’t have been so careful with their’s) - one day a new generation will start to discover that there is an alternative to the limited offering we currently have; provided we look after the radio broadcasts that we have maintained.
Thanks a lot for getting in touch and for supporting the Campaign For Real Music.
All the best
Paul
Good to read the comments of Bill Turner and his wife Rosemary Lundberg (who, incidentally, I would occasionally share a desk / music stand in the viola section back, in studio MV3 or MV6, in the very early 80s). We all have some ownership of the BBC, through the annual fee we have to pay. It seems a pity that we cannot get our voice heard on this issue. I do reiterate, that it is good to see so many more CDs etc of this type of muic being available, either as reissues or in new commercial recordings.
Really good to hear from another Radio Orchestra member - thanks for getting in touch, Julius.
Yes, it is sad that the BBC has turned its back on light orchestral music, but as you say, at least we do now have access to some excellent commercial recordings. If only the BBC woul open up its archives and release some of the BBC Radio Orchestra recordings (not least so that some of you can earn some royalties). Howeer, we suspect for too many reasons to list that this will never happen and are not certain the BBC would have preserved these treasures anyhow.
Thanks again for your interest in the Campaign For Real Music, and we will continue to do all we can to help raise the profile of artists and musicians such as yourselves, who really did make a wonderful contribution to our musical heritage.
All the best
Paul
Paul, I am delighted to have found RadioCafe and to read this report from you on Radio 2. I agree entirely with your comments, as will be evident to anyone who visits the R2ok website or the associated forum. It seems daytime Radio 2 is aimed entirely at 40-something truckers and factory workers who just want to hear pop as they work, and many employers do ‘tannoy’ Radio 2, and the Radio 2 controller completely ignores the fact that there are millions of young and older folk who work at home or are retired and whose favourite music is NOT 1980’s pop!
So much has gone recently - Your 100 Best Tunes, Melodies For You (OK, Alan Titchmarsh is a reasonable substitute), Parky and the focus of Friday Night Is Music Night is often drifting away from light music, and over at Radio 3 Brian Kay’s afternoon programme of light music has gone. So the fans of light music, swing, variety, vocal stylists, are left really with just Desmond Carrington, Russell Davies and Malcolm Laycock - 3 hours a week plus some of Titch’s playlist.
BBC Radio 2 is supposed to COMPLEMENT their local radio and commercial radio’s output, yet in the daytime it clearly aims to COMPETE!
John Wright
and David Jacobs - I missed our late Sunday night jock form the good list above!
Well said, David. We agree with all of your comments, and the sentiment behind the fantastic R2ok website, which we have included on the Radiocafe links page (see www.radiocafe.co.uk/links).
It is frustrating to see what the BBC has done to Radio 2; we’d like to see the Beeb use the digital network or internet to rectify this, and provide something for those of us who have been abandoned by the BBC. There must be plenty of good stuff in the archives too, but we fear much was dumped on the nearest skip along with many of its presenters and arrangers.
Keep up the good work and thanks for your support!
Radiocafe
Hear hear.
Another point to this: it’s not just the ‘oldies’ in their 60s and 70s who enjoy the songs with real content sung by those who could still sing. There is a whole new generation that is finding out that there is more to music than ‘hammer and scream’. You can tell from the crowds you see at the gigs, it’s young, not so young and a bit older enjoying themselves. So why doesn’t the Beeb start to organise some live broadcasts using it’s own orchestras and cater for them? Guest singers cannot wait to work with them, I’m sure. Why not open the archives that is stacked to the ceiling with BBC in-house recordings? The BBC is waisting its resources!
Now that that the BBC has dismissed the controler of Radio 2 over the Jonathan Ross show incident, perhaps this is the moment to rethink the policy for Radio 2 and indeed, get an extra new channel started with ‘our kind of music’.
Kind regards,
Paul Schooneman
Amsterdam
Paul
I absolutely agree - the main problem being there is no alternative being provided for young or old. The Beeb still has the BBC Concert Orchestra and Big Band and should have 1000s of Radio Orchestra recordings (these were fine arrangements; we are pleased to have so many of those in our own archives, which I suspect runs to more than the BBC has retained, who probably destroyed them years ago).
Without sounding too negative, though, while a rethink of Radio 2 would be welcome, it is probably too little too late. The old Radio 2 and many of its singers, arrangers and presenters are gone forever. Even though those people are still out there - we remain in touch with the likes of Neil Richardson, Mike Redway and Bill Rennells, talent that the BBC should have retained and provided to a new audience - we can never envisage the BBC bring these much loved individuals back to R2.
What we do perhaps need is the BBC to provide us with a dedicated digital station, as it seems to us this would be appreciated by so many. One day, maybe…
In the meantime, let’s keep up the momentum and thanks for your excellent contribution to the Campaign!
Paul @ Radiocafe
It’s good to know there are many of us out there longing for a light music station similar to the original Radio 2.
However, it seems we are not going to get it. My favourite programme that was originally introduced by the late lamented Alan Dell ‘Dance Band Days’ was removed without any forewarning leaving just an hour of swing. That means there are no dance band programmes to listen to for us oldies. The nearest we can get to the likes of Ambrose, Jack Payne, Jack Hylton, Henry Hall, Maurice Winnick, Joe Loss, etc is a programme called ‘String Of Pearls’ from BBC Wales on a Sunday morning. I am lucky that I have the means to listen to it via BBC iPlayer and my computer, but many of us oldies have not got these modern facilities.
I wrote (sent an email) to Bob McDowall and had a very unsatisfactory reply, I would have liked to have reproduced it here, but it might be regarded as private so I will not.
Many thanks to all you nice people who are trying to do something to bring some decent music back to the BBC.
Ron.
I couldn’t agree more. It seems that those in charge just seem content to propagate the music that THEY like, rather than try and cater for the tastes of all license payers
While I agree 100% with all of the condemnations of the BBC for its failure to provide any light music these days I have to come to their defence in one respect.
Even if they wanted to, the BBC would not be able to broadcast much historical material recorded by their various light orchestras - The Radio Orchestra, The Midland and Scottish Radio Orchestras etc. The reason is that virtually no recordings by these orchestras exist today. And the reason for this is not “vandalism” by the BBC, but the result of the agreements they were forced into by the Musicians’ Union in the 50s and 60s.
These meant that, in most cases, recordings could only be broadcast twice (sometimes only once) and then had to be destroyed. This was to ensure continuing employment for BBC musicians (to be fair to the MU, it didn’t seem all that unreasonable at the time) and the BBC had to adhere to this under threat of retribution from the MU. As a consequence, most of the recordings of these orchestras still in existence are in private hands, being “illegal” ones made and retained by Studio Managers, Producers etc. either for their personal use or to give to the artists (also “illegal”). And thank goodness that they did, otherwise we would have nothing to remind us of these great days.
Even where the BBC has retained recordings, the contractual and copyright problems are so complex that re-broadcasting them or issuing them commercially, even if they wanted to, is made so difficult that it is much easier to do nothing.
For those who have not yet come across them, Guild’s “Golden Age Of Light Music” series offers over 50 CDs of the kind of music we all think Radio 2 should still be broadcasting, including a few rare ones by BBC orchestras. Details may be found on my WEB pages: http://www.pelstream.co.uk/
Alan Bunting
What is really galling is to know that, having got rid of Radio 2’s British Dance Dand element, Bob McDowell has moved on after only a few weeks, leaving somebody else in charge of Malcolm Laycock’s programme! Last Sunday’s show was produced by a lady and McDowell’s name was read out at the end of another programme as producer.
Alan - we suspect you are spot on regarding the recordings of the BBC Radio Orchestra and the BBC’s other recordings. Such a shame that so many wonderful recordings are prevented from being heard again, and all due to legal technicalities.
The recordings we have acquired have mostly come direct from the arrangers themselves or others who were involved in their production; even these are of variable quality as the BBC itself was not forthcoming with the masters.
We do, like many others, have our own recordings for our own personal use which were recorded direct from the radio during the 70s and 80s. These are mostly of excellent quality and with a little remastering very good indeed. But there’s not much we can do with these for the usual legal reasons.
The BBC is clearly a lost cause for our kind of music, and sadly many of these personal collections will also end up being destroyed as there is no way of capturing them. We know of a number of Pensionners with vast collections on tape which will inevitably end up on the rubbish tip.
Many of our friends are not the type to post complaints on BBC message boards or write to the BBC, and so their views are never heard. The BBC does not seem to care and caters more increasingly for the Facebook generation. This is fine that it provides for a new audience, but this should not be at the expense of an existing and ageing one.
Fortunately, the likes of Mike Dutton at Vocalion, the Robert Farnon Society, and the efforts of those responsible for the wonderful Guild CDs, do provide a ray of sunshine in a barren terrain for light music. But what we will probably never experience again is the pleasure of knowledgeable broadcasters who introduced these recordings. The likes of Steve Race, Alan Dell, Robin Boyle, Benny Green, Hubert Gregg and Alan Keith.
Instead we have to suffer endless TV personalities and controversial celebrities who swan in to the prime BBC broadcasting positions. Who decides this is what we want? And why? It really does not make sense, but we have given up complaining to the BBC as it makes no difference at all.
Who was the last Radio 2 presenter to come up through the ranks as a radio broadcaster? Probably Ken Bruce? Alex Lester maybe? While talented individuals such as Steve Madden, Colin Berry and Bill Rennells have all been farmed off to local radio, in their place we have those who were selected because of their TV notoriety. It is not right.
John/Ron – we’ve added a dedicated post to express our discontent about dance bands being removed from Malcolm Laycock’s show – see http://www.radiocafe.co.uk/talk/?p=73. We spoke with Malcolm himself a few years ago, and could see this coming.
This is probably worth complaining to the BBC about, but we suspect it is unlikely that they will change their position on this. Sadly, we can only see things going further in the other direction.
Very Well put, but I think the only thing that might sway the present folk at the BBC, would be a national newspaper such as the Daily Mail to take up our cause and to chip away at them, not just one day, but a continuous campaign, it might just get through to the people that matter at the BBC.
After all we are not asking for much, just one programme of Dance Bands 1920s to 1940s, and another of light music.
Ron.
great thread, I think the Beeb does generally do an excellent job most of the time, and so it should with the resources and money it has. I do think however that there are huge gaping holes in its programming as pointed out so well here in regards to lighter music…How can they justify giving £400,000 a year to Russel Brand whilst other areas are strapped for cash?
One major reason behind much of the beeb’s failings is the ‘play it safe’ attitude of those in charge that do so simply to safe guard their own very cosy positions. The idea of bringing in massive names that other organisations have elevated to high position on the celeb ladder is a bad idea and an easy path to tread…then they justify these decisions with the ‘talent costs money’ rant. Because they want ratings to be as large as possible, quality and variety inevitably have to be trampled in the process.
I could go on…lol
I can sympathise with what you’re saying. Although I was never a fan of the “old” Radio 2 as a kid- and probably still wouldn’t be- it was obviously liked by some people.
I’ve heard enough of the current programming to know that it’s pretty much pop/rock-oriented stuff and the older MOR stuff seems to have disappeared. Did they think that the people that liked that stuff had died off? Maybe some of them have!- however, I’m not convinced that the BBC isn’t neglecting a less fashionable and more marginalised audience in favour of getting large audiences of twenty-to-fortysomethings.
(And WTF is- or was- Russell Brand doing on Radio 2?)
I’m not convinced that it’s just age either; I’m sure that there are many out there who’d like a change from the sameish retro-and-current-mixture of pop and rock that’s too common nowadays.
I don’t have DAB, but I got the impression that 6 Music was- or should be- the station for those who want the more interesting, diverse and obscure type of pop and rock. Calling Radio 1 a “music” station is a joke when it comes to Chris Moyles who plays very few records.
I don’t think that this is the only confidence trick that the BBC is guilty of at the moment and that’s just News & Current Affairs! At the supposedly younger end of the spectrum, I had the misfortune to listen to Chris Moyles’ Breakfast Show yesterday and one has to say that he, his sidekicks and perhaps the entire organisation appear to be steeped in arrogance - in this case assuming that the once great British public find their banter amusing??
I agree entirely with the general sentiment expressed above.
It seems that the BBC has adopeted the “high street” model of retail, ie if you have a good idea for a complimentary show/shop, forget it and open up a copy of the other pre-existing shows/shops: that’s why every (London) highy street is dominated by mobile phone shops and estate agents and why Radio 2 is playing the largely the same drivel as Radio 6, BBC Radio London, and almost every other music station of the FM dial.
Now, i shop for unique and less than unique things on teh internet and listen to my favourite music the same way. It’s a waste of what the high street was and could be and he same goes, i am afraid, for the BBC.
I am sorry to say that i do not hold out much hope for a reversal as you only have to listen to Radio 4’s Feedback programme to see how the BBC produceers, who are interviewed after a general and well-meaning comment for a listener etc, use self serving platitudinous arguments that were, once, only the preserve of career politicians.
I noticed this on the excellent and aforeposting John W’s r2ok site earlier. I wonder where and how this was publicised, if at all?
http://consultations.external.bbc.co.uk/departments/bbc/bbc-radio-2-and-bbc-6-music/consultation/consult-view
…and whether a range of the submissions will be documented publically?
Sorry- that should link as:
http://consultations.bbc.co.uk/departments/bbc//bbac-radio-2-and-bbc-6-music/consultaion/consult_view
I think an important element here is the way the personae of most presenters cajoles and perhaps coerces complicity in what’s played. (There are some decent choices on 6 when I’ve been obliged to have it on in cabs etc, but the roots of popular music are consigned to what’s called ‘The Freak Zone’). The point here is that playlist jocks have to do this too- its a sales pitch fundamentally, wheras the consensus here is that what’s needed is curating skills that stand on their own two feet. Another thing is that there’s what sociologists call a ‘hegemony’ being defended and promulgated which sometimes comes across to me as unquestioningly youthful and scatological.Some young peoples’ experience of youth has a bit more to it than that, and the music they make requires commensurate nurture. Where this happens, it’s an inter-generational thing, with , as to so rightly say here Paul, ‘..a bit of craft’. ‘Auntie’ has become somewhat p*ss-taking little brother at times. It’s a vulnerable entity, but the sum of its contributors rather than its bouts of auto-intoxication.
Dear Paul and everyone,
thanks for this.
Once in a while I go back to my old cassettes with recordings I made in the 70s and 80s at long distance from the continent(on VHF but in mono) and despite the hiss and crackle , I re-enjoy what Radio Two then was. I was still in my teens then. Yes, it was totally un-cool but I couldn’t give a fiver. I was glued to the music and loved R2s great radio presenters. It got me into radio for while some years later, spinning the same kind a music Down Under. We branded it ‘Good Music’ and it was popular, so much so that the competition nicked not only the format, but also the brandname.
We are 30 years or so on and I’m back here, Radio Two has re-jigged the format and found itself a different audience. But why? OK, there was a need for some change, but loosing an audience for the sake of finding another isn’t what I would call public broadcasting. That’s what commercial broadcasters are known for.
What The Beeb doesn’t want to accept is that Radio 1 isn’t really working, it keeps losing audience. This non-acceptance is stopping it from re-jigging the whole network and creating a new station that will cater for those who are interested in everything that is rock and pop (say 30s and up) and those who enjoy a more broadly scoped REAL Radio Two, with more specialist interest music, more MOR, more Big Band, more Soul, more Sinatra-Bassey-Julie London, a much better balance of all kinds of music that caters for a broad audience. A music lovers station, if you will. With better presenters who know what they are saying but can still be funny and entertaining, without being cheesy and predictable (sorry folks, I can name quite a few, but won’t). For those in their teens in want of their stuff, with digital radio and internet it is possible to move that kind of music away from the FM network.
It is not only that many 55+ have completely switched off Radio Two, a whole new generation has no idea what ‘our kind of music’ or ‘MUSIC’ really means.
All they know is that tinny noise from a box generated by a computer with a voice uttering meaningless words.
Next week I’ll be attending a live concert by the Metropole Orchestra of Dutch Radio again. It’ll remind me the days that I flew to London especially to see and listen to the BBC Radio Orchestra and other marvellous music output.
Paul Schooneman
Amsterdam
Enjoy Paul.They used to feature on something called ‘Nordring Rendezvous’ didnt they? They’ve worked with Elvis Costello amongst other people to very musical effect, and with Vince Mendoza attracts all manner of jazz soloists there. I’m hoping to catch them at the North Sea Jazz Fest, maybe see you there? I hear from Dutch friends that they face similar battles to get on and stay on air over there…
NOW is the time to fill in your BBC Radio 2 feedback questionnaires as the consultation closes on Thursday:
https://consultations.external.bbc.co.uk/departments/bbc/bbc-radio-2-and-bbc-6-music/consultation/consult_view
We’ve posted extensive comments. To be honest, we are not overly optomistic that much will change as a result. But the more who provide the same message, the more chance we have I guess.
I have already filled in this consultation questionaire some weeks ago, I don’t think they would accept another from me.
Just mentioning this to make sure you know.
Ron.
I have only recently joined this Site, so am a little late for any Questionnaires .. However, I know through my Voluntary Work as a Hospital and Community Broadcaster that Very Young People often enjoy the old Dance Band Music, and Light Music also.
I am saddened by the dropping of Certain Music by BBC Radio 2.
It is ridiculous to deny Any Music to Any Generation, as Musical Preference is a matter of Personal Taste, and we can often be surprised by the Crossing of Boundaries, Age or otherwise, which can be eased by Doctor Music.
I, and several of my Radio Colleagues, feel that Radio 2 has lost its way a bit at present, although there are some excellent Shows there as well.
You might be interested in the Website run by a Colleague and myself:
www.showbizradio.co.uk supplies one Show per Month [from me - ‘Showbiz Memories’ ..] covering the Music we Like ..
The rest of the Site, presented by my Colleague, is quite Excellent for Fans of Musicals, or the World of Cabaret, and provides the most recent Information in both of these Areas, in UK and also further afield.
[All Shows can be Accessed on Demand - a Click is all we need ..]
Let’s Fight the Good Fight for as long as we can!!
Many thanks Lynne for the link. I will look forward to your monthly input.
Nice to have the Shows to listen to, ah! takes me back to the good old days, hey ho, I leave you while I wallow in nostalgia.
Ron.
A Reply for Ron ..
Thanks for your Kind Comments! - let’s keep fighting for the Music we Like ..
All the Best - Lynne.
Thanks to Ron for his Kind Comments regarding Radio Issues, and in particular:
www.showbizradio.co.uk -
Regards - Lynne.
Thanks Lynne as you say we must keep up the pressure.
I expect most of you all know, but Just in case it has slipped any eagle eyes there is an excellent programme on BBC Radio Lancs every Monday evening starting at 7pm (19.00) it is three hours long and has a good mix of 20s 30s 40 s music and occasionally MOR light orchestral. The presenter is Gerald Jackson a very likeable fellow who does his best to play any request you send him. The URL is
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/lancashire/hi/tv_and_radio/newsid_8116000/8116343.stm. Or just Google Radio Lancs.
What would we do without the Web????
Ron.
In the early eighties the BBC announced they we getting rid of Alan Dell and Benny
Green. They backed down after a concerted outcry by the listeners of Radio 2.
Before this I had decided to record Benny and Alan’s shows if when I was able to be near my recorder, because I knew that these shows would one day be taken off. I now have a least 2000 such programmes together with Malcolm Laycock’s Sunday night show and his ‘Big Band Bash’ on Radio London all of which which I play nearly every day. I also record a local radio show called Singers & Swingers on sundays from 8pm-10pm in the West Country. The internet provides an enormous amount of “my kind of music ” I often listen to a radio station just outside Cleveland USA compered by an assortment of elderly ladies and gentlemen playing recordings from that bygone era when the music was great.
John
Thanks to everyone who has replied to my Comments, and to those who have visited Showbiz Radio’s Website.
It may be well-nigh impossible to change the official current opinion of BBC Programme-makers …
I don’t mind this too much, because Changes happen and have to be lived with.
All that happens is that we lose even more faith in the BBC.
The Decision-makers are probably quite young themselves, and totally Unaware of the Music we wish to protect, unless (as I have mentioned before) they happen to have begun their Careers in Hospital Radio …
I would, however, put Money on the likelihood of a Young BBC Bright Spark, ten or fifteen Years from now, suddenly ‘Discovering’ the Music we all love, and gaining loads of Kudos for Airing this to a whole new Audience ..
The thought of this Angers me Greatly.
Lord Reith would, I feel, have a lot to say.
We are ‘The People’, and we are being ignored.
At least, as several folk have mentioned, we do have the Internet ..
I am still, however, very cross that the views of so many Mature people are being ignored by the BBC, and that a Powerful Genre of Music is being potentially consigned to the Dustbin.
Joan Bakewell is currently speaking out for Older People .. is there any Mileage in approaching this Good Lady for some Support?
Yes, I think the views of the more mature listener are unwanted by the BBC, and it would be worth making a point of this to Ms Bakewell and other high profile individuals.
I should also point out that, being under 40 myself, the BBC cares little for my view too, having written many letters of complaint to no avail.
But we know of many older Radio 2 listeners whose views are completely disregarded by the current BBC Radio executive. It could easily be accused of ageism.
Lynne - we’ve added a link to showbiz radio to our homepage, an excellent venture that we are happy to support.
Reflecting around these comments with my occasional experiences in dealing with the BBC (and IRN), those of colleagues and semi-educated hunches, I think a core factor around our concerns here is the ratio of influence and supervision of young interns. This is not about youth per se- some years ago I was a contributor to a local IRN late night show with 8 or 9 people in the studio superbly marshalled by a 19-year old producer with an experienced jock- but about the indeterminate quotient of things like humility, probity, lifeskills, awareness of the wider world on its own terms,taste and awareness crucially of other tastes and tradition. Sudden departures / retirement of experienced and life-enhancing presenters in the face of apparently shoddy treatment and ‘Spanish practices’ may well be a reflection of this. General education no longer guarantees the above elements, for example, and nor may the scope of training within the corporation/s. Ther low regard for ‘media studies’ among education is a pertinent thing politically via a viz the potential/ actuality of deskiling amid the opening up of technology. Again , I reckon that the missing element is that of people skills such as used to be acquired through journalism training (eg Parky’s, Ray Gosling’s, Robbie Vincent-still about of course) or the picaresque world of old Rep (Ray Moore’s et al) If the media is as interactive as it seeks or claims to be, then this is a social action issue. To quote Denis, a supervisor of mine in the day job a while back, all we need be are ‘honest practicioners’ (rather than that suspect breed, the ‘media type’).
Goodness Gracious Me! .. or: ‘Good God, Audrey!’ .. (anyone a ‘Bradshaws’ Fan?)
What a lot of Impassioned Comments!
Those of us who have served many Years in Hospital and Community Broadcasting are well aware that we have no chance at all of entering the Hallowed Portals of the Beeb, even on unpaid work experience.
Therefore, Programme decisions, even the smallest, are left to those fresh from Uni, ‘Community’ projects or similar.
People from these Groups seem to have little difficulty in securing Work Placements with BBC.
Older, ‘Middle Class’, Skilled and Educated Practitioners have no chance at all, and indeed the BBC Official who ran a Seminar I attended last year agreed that this was the case.
I totally agree with our Correspondent who has remarked that the BBC could now be accused of Ageism, but the Rejected and Ignored Ones are not just Older People, as another Correspondent has said ..
It seems to me that there is a fear within the Beeb of all People who might know more about Music in its Entirety than their own Employees, who are young and relatively uninformed.
The Beeb seems to be so Politically Correct that it is now ignoring the views of those who used to form the Backbone of Britain, and treasure the Musical Heritage of this Country.
I think we are at some risk of talking round in circles here, although it is good for us all to know that other People feel as we do ..
I have suggested approaching Joan Bakewell etc, but am not myself at liberty to do this - I feel that this Task should fall to ‘Radio Cafe’ themselves, who could speak on behalf of us all.
I would obviously write in support any such Move.
It’s not just the Music .. it’s also the lamentably Juvenile and Back-Scratching level of what often passes for ‘Comedy’ on Radio 2 ..
Radio 4 isn’t too bad, but I often wonder who on earth Radio 2 think they are speaking to when they attempt to be Funny.
As I say .. ‘In-House’ and ‘Scratching of Backs’ are phrases which come to mind ..
Onwards and, hopefully, Upwards -
Thanks to All who are listening to Showbiz Radio - Lynne.
BBC Radio has never catered to it’s listeners requirements and should be sold off so we can all get a big reduction in the tv license fee. Relying on any radio station to entertain you is out of date, so download your own favourite music and forget radio.
There are hundreds of internet stations to choose from so who needs the BBC anymore. People should stop supporting all BBC radio services and instead petition for more radio services for older listeners. I see regular articles in my local newspaper saying BBC Local radio is not playing the music it’s main audience wants.
Radio Caroline had to come about in 1964, to provide what the kids wanted, and now years later we need another pirate to play some grownup music because the BBC has YOUTH DISEASE, and thinks young people listen to radio today.
From what i have seen most youngsters prefer to download their own music not listen to radio. Next time a car comes by you with speakers thumping out music you can be sure he, or she is not listening to radio. I want my license fee back because having a large choice of tv channels to watch i hardly ever watch BBC TV either, but get lumbered paying for a service that does nothing for me. So far as i am concerned with radio and the BBC it might as well be 1963 again, with bland out of touch radio, only this time instead of putting up with old BBC orchestras, i now have to listen to kiddy pop. I still like my pop and rock, but don’t mind a bit of big band now then, or a bit of Jazz and Sinatra. It is just a pity there are no grown ups running BBC radio services. There is no need to separate these music styles just put them all together with other oldies so you get a nice mix of music. The best radio today is in hospitals when they play patient requests because then you get variety.
I like old BBC orchestras but in other respects I totally agree with you.
Thanks for the reply Howard, i should have corrected myself and said as a teenager i did not like these old BBC orchestras, but now many years later i don’t mind that sort of stuff. I did not like Sinatra, and Nat King Cole, back then, but now they are all part of my music collection. I have gone even further back now and enjoy 1920’s jazz, but you will still find my sixties pop and rock music, and even singers like Will Young in my music. I love music from all eras all styles, except punk bands and rap music, but this could also be a contradiction as i have the Stranglers in my music collection. A radio program does not have to be about one era, or just pop it can be all sorts of music combined if weaved together cleverly.
IT is normally when listeners have a bigger imput to what is played that things improve.
, Many correspondents refer to the 70s when they discuss nostalgia. I suppose it all depends on your age group. Being in my late sixties, I became ‘hooked’ on the light orchestras and dance bands which occupied a significant portion of the day’s broadcasting in the fifties. I woke up to ‘Bright and Early’ - a half hour of studio recorded music, followed that with two hours of ‘Morning Music’ - usually featuring a BBC Staff Orchestra with two smaller ensembles to contrast. We also had the twice daily ‘Music While You Work’ programmes of uninterrupted live music played by a veritable host of dance bands, light orchestras, military bands. Whenever I could I would record these programmes and fifty odd years on I still enjoy them today. I don’t suppose names like Louis Voss, Bernard Monshin, Harold Collins, George Scott-Wood, Cecil Norman and Ronnie Munro register with people today. Fortunately I kept the many hundreds of recordings that I made in the fifties and sixties and still enjoy them today. They don’t sound dated to me - they are just great entertainment!
I also enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) the BBC Orchestras - particularly the Northern Ireland Light Orchestra and the wonderful and versatile Midland Light Orchestra. The Radio Orchestra, to which several correspondents refer was actually the amalgamation of the BBC Variety and Revue Orchestras. Although the Radio Orchestra was a fine combinations, it did not play much of what I would describe as ‘genuine light music’, as it concentrated on instrumental versions of popular songs. Although it was probably the best thing on radio by the eighties, I found it a little uninspiring by comparison with the aforementioned orchestras.
For anybody who is interested, I have recently put an extended article about ‘Music While You Work’ on my website www.mastersofmelody.co.uk which also includes a complete broadcast, played by Cecil Norman and the Rhythm Players, which lovers of piano music should enjoy!
Brian
Thanks so much for your contribution. For those of you who do not know of Brian Reynolds, we are pleased to be able to say that there is no greater authority on light music. Brian - we are very proud to welcome you here.
We would encourage those of you who are interested in light music - or just in music generally - to take a look at Brian’s Masters of Melody website (http://www.mastersofmelody.co.uk/) and get hold of a copy of his definitive book on this subject
Brian - you were probably more fortunate than many of us to have had the opportunity to experience a time when such wonderful music filled the airwaves. I caught the tail end of this, growing up in the 70s and 80s and having discovered the other BBC orchestras you mention, having been fed a diet of BBC Radio Orchestra, with wonderful composer/arrangers such as Neil Richardson and John Fox.
It is sad that the earlier generation of light music composers, many of whom you list, will be unknown to most these days. At least we are able to rediscover many of these courtesy of the excellent Guild “Golden Age Of Light Music” series of CDs.
Incidentally, any idea what has happened to Light Music Radio?
In the meantime, we have put a link to your website on the homepage of ours.
Wishing you every continued success with your site and book!
Best wishes and Happy New Year.
Paul @ Radiocafe.co.uk
In answer to the enquiry about Light Music Radio ( presumably you mean ‘UK Light Radio’), Andre Leon has had to rest the test transmissions for a few months as the cost of keeping the station on the air was proving to be excessive. What he desperately needs is a sponser ! Andre very much hopes to be able to resume the test transmissions very soon - but he does have to eat!
I, along with many others, hope that it gets underway again soon. I’ve even recorded a programme for it !
The welfare and fate of jazz at the BBC is maybe a useful litmus test of thinges to come. The current controller of R3 and the alleged programming controller of 2 and 6 music explain how they are meeting their charter requirement to showcase british jazz at the Cockpit theatre…
www.musictank.co.uk
The Westminster university research unit behind this looks pretty pro bona from their mailouts.
To add insult to injury, BBC Local Radio (in the West) has seemingly just replaced the immensely popular golden oldies request show As Time Goes By presented by David Lowe on Saturday evenings between 8 & 10 pm with an 80s pop show. Don’t get me wrong, I quite enjoy 80s pop as I was a youngster in the eighties and the songs hold a certain nostalgia BUT despite only being in my late thirties I really like music from yesteryear (i.e. big band, jazz and classic crooners such as Sinatra & Fitzgerald etc) and there are so few channels playing it on the radio it’s a travesty that it has been pulled. David Lowe continues to host Swingers & Singers on Sunday evenings but I think it was the requests element of the Saturday show, As Time Goes By that made it all the more endearing. Bring it back BBC!
Could I revert to my posting of December 30th. when I told you of an edition of ‘Music While You Work’ which I had put on my website. Well, now there’s now another one - this time from 1955 featuring Marcel Gardner and his Serenade Orchestra - a delightful, sparkling light orchestra which was very typical of the numerous ‘outside orchestras’ regularly employed by the BBC until they were all taken off the air in the mid-sixties. This can be found by clicking onto ‘Music While You Work’ on the front page of the site. Also, if you click onto ‘Morning Music’, you will be able to listen to a complete 40 minute edition of this programme from 1954, played by Jack Leon and his Orchestra, from the days before the show transferred to the Light Programme and became a multi orchestra show. The sound quality is excellent, as is the orchestra’s playing - all items beautifully presented by one of the articulate BBC announcers of the day, who made you feel that you were being treated as an adult. The website can be found at http://www.mastersofmelody.co.uk .
Thank you so much Brian, Wonderful made my day.
I hadn’t a recording of Marcel Gardner and his Serenade Orchestra, so I am more than pleased.
Haven’t listened to the ‘Morning Music’ or the interview, but looking forward to that as soon as I get a free minute.
Love the picture of the Bush DC10 used to sell them in my young days.
Ron.
I have now added more actual off-air programmes to my website http://mastersofmelody.co.uk//
‘Bright and Early’ - The Billy Mayerl Rhythm Ensemble (1958)
‘Melody on the Move’ - BBC Northern Ireland Light Orchestra (1958)
‘Music while You Work - Lou Preager and his Orchestra (1959)
All of the above are on the appropriate programme pages, however there is an additional ‘Music While you Work’ - delightful light music programme by Norman Whiteley and his Sextet (1959) which can be found on the page devoted to Norman Whiteley. Hope you enjoy listening to these programmes from a more melodic age.
How very odd that I should find this site - by accident- at the same time as experiencing some heavy-duty nostalgia about my time in the BBC Radio Orchestra. I have been listening to cassette tapes of broadcasts made from the mid-eighties until the shameful demise of the orchestra (early nineties) & am still as excited by the music as I was playing it then. The quality of the playing, particularly of solo instrumentalists, is outstanding. I joined at the age of 25, already very familiar with the repertoire having listened to Radio 2 since primary school! I remember feeling so blessed to be working with not only such a great band, but with many of the world’s finest arrangers/composers. Robert Farnon, Angela Morley, Neil Richardson,John Fox,Roland Shaw, Laurie Holloway, Johnny Pearson….Some of the presenters, too, were characters without comparison. I think that was the secret - a formula without comparison which worked well because most of us felt passionately about what we were doing. If the BBC wants Radio 2 to ‘Get older’ again, they should think back to what worked before. If they would like to re-form the Radio Orchestra,I’ll be the first one back! Some of us are still alive & the Concert Orchestra just can’t cut it the same way….
Thank you Brian for the Lou Preager programme, another one I hadn’t got.
Did you by any chance see the Rogers & Hammerstein programme from the Proms on Sunday? It was absolutely marvellous, Peter Wilson and his orchestra with the various singers gave us a wonderful evenings entertainment. Credit must also go the BBC engineers for the sound reproduction the balance between orchestra and singers was perfect.
Ron
Glad you liked it Ronald. You’ll probably enjoy the Norman Whiteley programme as well. I intend to add programmes from time to time, as they fall out of copyright. In the new year I hope to add Tommy Kinsman and George Scott-Wood amongst others. Keep watching this page - actually it’s probably the wrong page as the subject matter is really Radio 6! I can’t believe that the BBC have reversed their decision to close it down.
Yes, I did hear the John Wilson Orchestra in the Rodgers and Hammerstein Prom.
It was,of course, excellent and the sort of music to which the BBC ought to be broadcasting regularly. Mind you, I think that last year’s MGM Prom had the edge!
Thanks Brian, I have just listened to the Norman Whitley MWYW I particularly liked the Xylophone, I think it was a Xylophone a nice mix with a sextet. Again another MWYW not in my library but it is now thanks to you.
I have sent an email to you asking a favour which I cannot post publicly.
Ron.
I like the the way this has drifted way off topic to glorious traditional light music. I find myself witha couple of colleagues who write imho very well in emulation of this tradition. Anyway, the other day I listened to a bit of 6 music ’so you don’t have to’. I can report that at least 2 of the presenters on one Sunday have a working knowledge of the music of their parents and grandparents’ generation and put some of it on without any hint of condecension. There was a pleasing note of dissent, critical faculty and irreverence about Cerys Matthews and John Cooper Clarke’s shows which I think is a hopeful sign. Another was the eclectic bunch gathered recently to celebrate Humph (highlights on R4 today: I for one had no idea that Elkie Brooks sang with Eric Delaney aged 16- good to know).