Dance Bands - Malcolm Laycock
Posted by Radiocafé on 25 Nov 2009 at 1:00 am |
Category: 3. Light & Easy, 1. General Music
UPDATE: 
10 November 2009: We are sad to learn that Maclolm Laycock passed away on 8th November 2009. Malcolm was one of the finest broadcasters, and has been greatly missed from the airwaves since his recent departure from BBC Radio 2. We are so very sorry to hear of this news, as Malcolm was a true gentleman and pioneer of the dance band cause. We were fortunate enough to meet him a few years ago, which was a privilege for us. There were few broadcasters with his vast knowledge and experience and we wish to pass on our condolences to his family and many friends. His memory will live on among those of us for whom his broadcasts brought so much pleasure over the years.
____
Original story:
Dance bands are the latest to get the chop from the new “supercool” Radio 2. Malcolm Laycock’s producers have decided to (or, we suspect been forced to) dump the dance band section of his 10-11pm show on a Sunday evening. The first half hour is now dedicated to the modern swing bands instead. What a shame for the genre!
In fact, it may mark the demise of this type of music altogether, as it now has no presence whatsoever on mainstream national and DAB radio. A few tokens will feature on BBC local radio, courtesy of pioneers such as Frank Wappat, but unless it finds a small home somewhere on the BBC’s vast and increasingly homogenous national radio network, it is set to be lost to future generations.
This is not just a shame but a tragedy. BBC: you are wrong to assume we want a Radio 2 that is all about being young and trendy. There are many of us under 40 who are bored silly of what you have done and are doing to the network. We don’t want endless James Blunt, Coldplay and Amy Winehouse, we can get that elsewhere in abundance. But we can no longer get decent dance bands, light music, or new country anywhere at all. Genres which, presumably, you have decided are not “cool” enough for the audience which you seek.
Is it really all about ratings? Or is it that the loud minority always gets its way? Just because the internet generation sends posts to various BBC message boards proclaiming Radio 2 has a “pipe and slippers” image, you respond, BBC Radio 2 controllers, by removing the few small morsels of varied music that you provide.
How long is left for The Organist Entertains? Or David Jacobs? Or Listen To The Band? Or are these “trendy” enough for you to leave them alone? Is it really too much for us to have an hour of light music each week (cancelled last year by Radio 3), or half an hour of dance bands, or an hour of Sounds Easy on a Sunday?
We know there are many people like us, both young and old, for whom the BBC no longer caters. If you feel the same way, let us know, and perhaps we can form a loud minority of our own to help redress the unjust imbalance that has taken away that which we loved so much.
Radiocafe
December 2008
UPDATE: JULY 2009
Malcolm presented his last show on Radio 2 and it seems was forced out of the radio station - for more on this, read the latest reports below.
SIGN THE PETITION!
Please visit BRITISH DANCE BANDS RADIO 2 PETITION if you wish to sign to petition against the BBC’s decision regarding Dance Band Days.
LISTEN TO ALAN DELL’S DANCE BAND DAYS HERE:
Click on the player below to hear an Alan Dell Dance Band Days edition from over 30 years ago. This show was broadcast on 2nd July 1979. It is being presented here for a limited time only:
Get Flash to see this player.
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This is change for the sake of it. A young producer has to make changes, or so they think they should, with no real regard about the impact of cultral vandalism. Think of this for one moment; this superb genre has been played on the BBC since the 1920s,almolst the entire life of the BBC and now has been cast aside for no real gain or particular reason.There is plenty of music played on the BBC that I have no liking for personally but I would never deprive those who love these genres to enjoy their particular airtime programmes.
I must highlight the way in which this has been handled and withdrawn . For years we have been used to the informative dialogue that Malocolm Laycock has delivered to accompany this wonderful music.Then nothing, I feel robbed.I am in my mid forties and probably considered too young to be intrested in this type of music. Never assume, producer,never assume.
They we get away with this if not challenged. We need a forum to build up pressure to have some airtime allotted and spared.
Well said, Gary - we agree will all of your comments. Except add in also that for 30 or so years beforehand, the wonderful Alan Dell provided the content and information on this important and influential period of our musical heritage.
If you take a look at some our other items on BBC Radio 2 (in particular http://www.radiocafe.co.uk/talk/?p=37) you will see there are many others who feel the same way as we do.
This forum here is in fact intended to help gather together support which we can use to demonstrate to the BBC that there are so many of us who are very disgruntled by the changes they have made, and continue to make.
We have in fact written to the BBC many, many times but all you ever receive is the same stock response, indicating the variety of music that Radio 2 offers etc. etc. but completely disregarding the points you make.
So instead we decided to try and build up some support through this site.
Incidentally, I am 38 and many of my friends who love the dance bands are also in their 30s.
As a temporary “fix”, we recommend using the BBC’s “listen again” service to hear the excellent “A String of Pearls” on BBC Wales each weel, which does play plenty of dance bands. Frank Wappat on BBC Newcastle also has plenty of dance band content on his show each week But beyond these small morsels, I hope you have some old recordings of Malcolm’s to enjoy…
It is such a pity and, as you say, seems to be simply change for change’s sake.
Thanks a lot for your contribution to the Campaign For Real Music - keep up the good work!
All the best
Paul @ Radiocafe
I was devastated at the sudden unannounced demise of the Dance Band section of Malcolm Laycock’s show last month. I accidentally discovered this musical genre when I tuned in to Alan Dell’s show in the early 1980s. I was born long after the heyday of the British Dance Bands but I was captivated by the great songs, marvelous arrangements and the technical brilliance of the musicianship, all ‘unplugged’ and long before that term was coined. Every week there was guaranteed to be at least one gem of a recording which I had never heard before and it was this anticipation which made me listen to the programme religiously every week, the only programme on radio or television, on any station, which I never missed. What I also enjoyed was the wealth of knowledge about the music, the musicians and the venues which Alan Dell and Malcolm Laycock brought to their shows. Indeed, it is the loss of this knowledge which probably saddens me most. I recognise that British Dance Band music is a niche interest but, as others have pointed out, in the digital age it should be possible for a large organisation such as the BBC to cater for such an audience, even for only 30 minutes each week. I wrote to the BBC about this but received a proforma reply which did not give me hope for the future. I have given Malcolm’s new Swing programme a month’s trial and, unfortunately, the content has been such that I will not be listening to it anymore. The change has probably resulted in the loss of many hundreds, if not more, of very faithful listeners like myself and I would be very surprised is an accidental listener to the new format becomes hooked to the current musical content as I did to the Dance Bands.
I also received a pro-forma and a too well-crafted reply that didn’t hold out any hope for me either. Maybe a large number of “observations” (that are in effect complaints) to the producer Caroloine Snook will at least show them what they have done?
I was a confirmed “never-miss” to the Malcolm Laycock show and am sad to say that my own trial “listen and see if I can still enjoy” has failed so I wont be rushing to listen in. This itself is a shame as I suspect that its part of the strategy to whittle away the audiences bit by bit then can the show altogether.
What the BBC has failed to realise is that it was not just the music, it was the sound-picture that Malc used to build up of the sophisticated restaurants and clubs of London’s West End in teh 20s and 30s. Not only entertaining but informative too.
I’m glad I made many recordings now. Trouble is I now have to digitise them!
RDS
I, too, found Malcolm Laycock’s show quite by chance and was instantly hooked. I agree totally with Ronaldo about the ‘picture’ that ML used to create, and I always used to set my radio to record from 10.00 to 10.30 on Sunday evenings.
Like many others, I am bitterly disappointed and was not at all impressed with the prepared email from the exec producer that I suspect a great many of us received.
As Paul Kenna pointed out, surely the BBC can find a 30 minute slot for the music that has been jettisoned so insensitively.
I am a musician who, among other things, teaches piano, and I have had pupils in their early-to-late teens avid to play 20s, 30s and 40s dance music simply because they love it (with only a little introduction from me). I like to think that I have influenced a good many youngsters in this way. Don’t let anyone tell us that such music is purely for pensioners!
Peter Blamires
I contacted the programme today as I thought it must be me. I thought I must have missed the announcement about the show only using big band music. But seeing your website, I’m sorry to say it’s not me. As a teenager of the fabulous 60’s, the big band is my older siblings’ generation and therefore awful. However, the nostalgic music of the 20’s and 30’s is great. Oh well - it’s YouTube from now on then!
Has anyone, I wonder, ever been successful in encourging the BBC to think again after a similar abrupt change?
If so, and I doubt it, perhaps we could follow the same tactics?
RDS
Yes, following Frances Line’s ridiculous decision in the early 1990s to cancel Alan Dell’s Sounds Easy, the show was reinstated after a huge outcry by fans of the show.
However, it is a very different BBC Radio 2 these days, and the BBC is rather more surrepticious about how it goes about cancelling the establised shows these days. It either:
- Moves the slow to a time slot at which fewer people will be listening. This has happened to many of the old guard: Alan Dell’s Dance Band Days and Big Band Era, Desmond Carrington, and most shamefully David Jacobs. Why is such a fine broadcaster only on our radios at 11pm on a Sunday night? Shame on you BBC!
- Tinkers with the format so it gradually removes older music - as it has done with Malcolm and Dessie’s shows.
- Enforces retirement on the presenter, (e.g. why was there the need to replace the great Shelia Tracey with Stacey Kent?)
- Waits for the presenter to pass away, then allows the show to disappear (as happened with Sounds Easy, 100 Best Tunes, Thanks For The Memory, Sing Something Simple etc. etc.)
- Farms the presenter off to local radio (where a number of fine broadcasters currently reside, e.g. Colin Berry, Bill Rennells, Steve Madden - Steve really should have been the permanent replacement for Ray Moore, he was talented and funny and used to the early mornings.
Yes we should all write to the Beeb and complain, and we here would gladly forward this link to them to demonstrate the many dissapointed listeners. However, as one of the BBC’s current broadcasters once warned us: criticise the BBC at your peril; the only way to get more is to praise. Trouble is, there is very little at Radio 2 for us to praise these days.
One small glimmer of hope. A new independent station is being set up called “UK Light Radio” - see http://www.uklightradio.co.uk/. We have few details at present but the line-up looks very good indeed, with some excellent presenters. We’ll feature more on this soon.
But nothing will be quite the same as the old Radio 2 which so many of us, young and old, grew up on and loved. What a shame that we have been wholly abandoned by the beeb.
Radiocafe
Yes thanks for the tip on the radio channel: the listing promises much, i didn’t see a link to a stream though.
More info greatly appreciated!
Ronaldo
I would like to add my name to the list of mourners at the wake for the Dance
Band Days. The callous evisceration of the only unmissable programme left on
R2 is an act of lunacy. I too recieved the oh so smooth e-mail from Snook -
how is it that no-one at the BBC ever admits they are wrong? Mr. Laycock
obviously loves the Dance Band genre and he must be as upset as the rest of us,
my sympathies are with him. 50years of listening to R2 have now come to an end
and who cares?
You eh?
well i wonder if we are remiss, having received Ms Snook’s smooth email, in not writing back pointing aout the various illogicalities in her argument eg “the dance bands only cover 10 years…..so we can reduce it proportionately” (misquoted i know, but i don’t have the full text with me) - weren’t the 60s only 10 years long? yet there are at least two R2 60’s shows of an hour or more each per week….
RDS
Well said. And throw in also that “light music” covered a couple of hundred years, they had an entire station devoted to it for decades (which in fact became the station which now employs her), and yet it didn’t stop the BBC removing last year the remaining, paltry, single hour of light music.
What a silly, nonsense argument by Ms Snook. Are you going to recommend cancelling Radio 3 since classical music is out of date? You should know that music, like decent wine, does not have a shelf life.
Come on BBC, admit the error of your ways. You are letting down your listeners and doing a huge disservice to one of the finest genres of all time, which also happens to be exclusively British.
And I fall in to the precise demographic you are after, as you only seem to care about getting on board “younger listeners”, and being seen as cool and trendy, at all costs. Why?
The real shame of this is that I love the BBC. It does so many things so well and many that no-one else could ever do at all.
But some kind of cancer has crept into the institution which has already killed off many of the things that made BBC radio so good. Decisions such as this one will, I fear, lead to the Corporation’s ultimate demise.
In case Ms Snook or anyone in BBC middle-management ever gets to see this, here is a small piece of basic advice: when trying to attract new punters, it is important that you do not overlook your valuable, loyal, regular base; and remember also that the new ones you so keenly seek may not be quite so loyal, particularly when there are so many other places providing what you now feel you ought to serve.
Or in simpler terms, please can you just admit you are wrong and reinstate the dance bands.
Langers @ Radiocafe
Dear Paul@Radio Café
Like all of the correspondents on this page, I too loved the dance band segment of Malcolm Laycock’s Sunday night show, and was devastated when it was withdrawn. I too emailed the BBC to let them know my feelings, and received the same absurd impersonal response implying that I was just an old fossil, a listener left over from the days of valved wireless and crystal sets (although in fact I’m only in my mid sixties). I don’t care much for Swing and Big Band – it’s far too brash and noisy for my taste, and there is enough noise around nowadays, but I do love the gentle Dance Band music of the 20’s and 30’s – an era which (despite the horrors that were brewing in some parts of the world) was one of style and romance - cocktails at the Ritz, and a flying boat on a moonlit lagoon.
In my despair I Googled the words “Malcolm Laycock British Dance Bands” and came across your website and discovered that I was not alone. There’s not a lot that I can say that has not been said here already (and expressed better than I can say it), but for what they are worth, here are my own thoughts:
I am appalled that the BBC can so casually and furtively drop a music genre which they have played ever since their incorporation and I feel certain that it was not the decision of Malcolm Laycock himself - for he clearly loves the British dance bands – but the rash directive of a young producer out to make his mark. Neither am I convinced by their reply that “air time for big band music is in short supply” – not least because they also broadcast ‘Big Band Special’ on Monday nights.
It seems to me highly ironic too that at the precise moment when digital re-mastering is revealing the quality of this early music for the very first time – enabling it to be heard the way it sounded on the dance floor – the BBC is no longer willing to play it. At one foolish stroke a broadcasting era has been swept away, for if the BBC won’t play it, who else will? Where now can we make a weekly date with Carroll Gibbons or Ambrose?
And yet, much as I miss Malcolm’s programme, I no longer mind what the BBC has done, because as it turns out they have done me a favour. Had they not axed the Dance Bands I would never have discovered ‘Angel Radio’ (Havant). Every Saturday night at 7pm Tony Smith broadcasts a British Dance Band programme called ‘Leader of the Band’. Unlike Malcolm Laycock, he only features one band per programme (this week it was Jack Payne), and although he gives biographical details, he doesn’t often mention recording locations or dates. However, this is more than made up for by duration. Against Malcolm’s 30 minutes, his programme is two hours long. I record it, and have enough delicious music to last me the whole week through. If you haven’t discovered ‘Angel Radio’ yet, then do give it a try (it’s available on line); you won’t be disappointed, and you can kiss the BBC goodbye.
MIKE MARTIN
I should perhaps just add that Tony Smith doesn’t yet have the depth of knowledge that Malcolm Laycock has when it comes to “building up a sound-picture of the sophisticated restaurants and clubs of London’s West End in the 20s and 30s” - but give him time.
MIKE MARTIN
what a find Mike! many thanks.
just tuned in to Angel, however other programmes seem available as “listen again” features but no “Leader of the Band” unless i am not accessing it correctly. How are you recording it: off the computer?
I shall add the station to my internet radio immediately.
Regards
RDS
Hello Mike and Ronaldo
Thank you for your comments about my wireless station, Angel Radio, and my ‘Leader of the Band’ programmes.
Angel Radio plays all types of music recorded before 1960. We are on air 24/7. We have around 120,000 vintage music tracks (growing daily) and have request programmes every day of the week . . . . and it’s free to call us from a UK based landline 0800 014 1955. So if we aren’t playing your kind of music, just call during a request show.
We don’t pretend to be anything more than a group of enthusiasts. We are not highly paid slick DJs broadcasting from a sterile soundproof booth at the top of an ivory tower. We are ‘ordinary’ people. No soundproof booth (listen for the phones ringing in the background) and certainly no ivory tower, just a small building in Havant market place. We certainly could never come near to replacing Alan Dell or Malcolm but Angel Radio is REAL RADIO in every sense.
Tony Smith: Founder / Manager
Hello Tony
many thanks for this. Is there a “listen again” feature for the Leader of the Band show?
I have replied to you more fully off-line.
Kind regards
Ronaldo
I’ve just located Angel Radio. What a find! However, let’s not relax our bombardment of the BBC with our complaints. It’s a public service and it should listen to its public.
Peter Blamires
Hello Ronaldo
At the moment we don’t have a listen again facility for the Leader of the Band programmes. I could set up a stream which features programmes about dance bands and dance band leaders & singers but the programmes would be on a loop and you would have to take pot luck as to which one would be playing when you switched on. Would this be of any use to anyone? please let me know.
Alternatively I could embed one or two shows each week on our website pages so that you could listen on demand, but then you would be stuck with the same two shows all week as opposed to about 40 on the loop stream.
In my previous posting I said we were all ordinary people, now and again we do have some well know names pop in to present shows. Last week Tim Gudgin dropped by to present a 30 minute profile of his time with the Beeb (Top of the Form, Housewives Choice, Grandstand, etc) and a 150 minute request programme.
Don Lusher also joined us on a couple of occasions a few years ago. Master whistler Ronnie Ronalde, who listens online in Australia, came over last year and did a live concert and Fireside Chat for us. So no, we’re not all ‘ordinary’, just 99% of us.
Tony Smith: Founder / Manager
Hello Tony
yes a loop would be perfect: pot luck is half the fun, otherwise i’d only be listening to my own dance band cds etc
That’s a few very intersting people you have there.
By the way, i am told i am named after the master whistler……..
Kind regards
Ronaldo
Hello Ronaldo
I’m glad to have been able to introduce you (and some of the other folk) to Angel Radio. I see that Tony has answered your question concerning listen again, but you also asked how I record the show. Well, as there is no ‘Listen Again’ facility at present I have to record on Saturday night when the show goes out, and yes, I do record it through the computer. I have a Panasonic tape recorder which has a double red/black ‘CD/Line in’ socket, which I connect (using an appropriate lead connection) into the computer’s earphone socket. I’m sorry that this is not a very technical explanation, but at least it does work a treat. Happy listening.
MIKE MARTIN
Hi Ronaldo, Mike, Peter and all dance band enthusiasts
Thank you for your feedback.
I have now created a dance band station for you.
Go to angelradio.co.uk and click the wireless knob marked DANCE BANDS.
Then select your media player. . . . . . or go to ANGEL SPEECH PLUS on your internet wireless. The name will become ANGEL DANCE BANDS in a few days.
There are over 60 dance band programmes already in the loop. This gives you 48 hours of different shows. I will add more over the next few days.
Please spread the word and support us in our bid to provide a national DAB service.
It’s now 3.30am and I’m off to bed.
Best wishes
Tony Smith: Founder / Manager
Angel Radio 101.1 FM (Havant)
Thanks to Mike, Tony, Ronaldo and everyone or your continued support for the love of this wonderful genre.
Tony - we are very excited at the prospect of Angel Radio - if you want to send us an article on the station, we will gladly feature it on these pages. Sounds like you have a very good line-up, and in particular we would be interested to hearthe Tim Gudgin feature (if only more presenters had such a great voice!). Mike/Ronaldo - the offer is also open to both of you too, if there is anything in particular you would like to say here then we’d be happy to set up a column for each of you.
Otherwise, let’s continue to garner support on this page: even if perhaps the BBC is a lost cause, we are here to promote the likes of Angel Radio, UK Light Music and all the local presenters who still have an appreciation and dedication to great music.
All our best
Radiocafe
Hello Tony,
Thank you for setting up the special Dance Band Station facility just for us,and thank you too for your lovely programme. God bless you.
I’m a relatively new listener to Angel. Perhaps at some stage you could come onto this website to give us a bit of background information to the show - when it started, Bands you have covered and so on.
Meantime, I’m spreading the good news about Angel Radio at every opportunity (Just a thought, I wonder if Malcom listens to your show?).
Sweet dreams.
MIKE MARTIN
PS You are a rare individual in this world. If only the BBC (and more particularly Radio 2) could have been half so accommodating
Hello Radiocafe,
Thanks a million for your kind words. I was very depressed when Radio 2 dropped the Dance Bands, but you know what? I’m beginning to get very excited now!
MIKE MARTIN
Dear All
yes thanks for the replies to my personal questions re recording, more dance bands etc.
I wonder if it might be worth copying this thread on this site to Malcolm’s producer Carline Snook, in order to demonstrate the depth of feeling?
Regards
Ronaldo
Let’s hear it for Angel Radio! It’s the best news I’ve heard in a long time. It’s also good to know the strength of feeling out there for dance band music. Thank you, Tony!
Hello again
Does Malcolm listen to Angel Radio?
Well although he hasn’t contacted me directly, one of his friends tells me he does tune in now and again. I believe Malcolm found one of our home made commercials particularly grating so I took it off and remade it.
Tim Gudgin listens regularly and particularly enjoys the ‘Music Makers’ programme at 8pm every Friday.
Nat Temple, although very ill at the time, listened with his daughter to our programme about him.
Modern technology is wonderful. We recently had a publisher in Indianapolis call to say he was driving to milwaukee with Angel Radio blaring out on his car radio. Evidently Apple stream us to the new iPhones, which can be bluetoothed to the latest car audio systems. It’s all a bit beyond this lover of 78s and cylinders, but a fabulous feeling that Angel Radio, which is one of the UK’s smallest and poorest radio stations can keep someone in the USA company on a long car journey.
Regarding the question about the history of Angel Radio and which dance bands we have featured; we celebrate our 10th Birthday this February and we have touch in some small way almost all the dance bands featured in the Bible as written by Brian Rust. We were one of the original 15 radio stations who pioneered the 4 year project to introduce community radio to the UK. We were the 2nd station to be awarded one of the new licenses. Last year, during a debate about community radio, Angel Radio was held up at the European Parliament in Brussels as “An extremely good example of community radio”.
I will tell you more in an article which I will write for the Radiocafé website as soon as time allows.
Best wishes and in Henry Hall’s words “Here’s to the next time”
Tony Smith: Angel Radio
First of all, my apologies for coming late to this thread, but I’ve just lit upon it and hope I can contribute to the earlier BBC-oriented discussion. What follows is of necessity paraphrased.
I wrote to the BBC and the BBC Trust on 20th November to complain about the axing of British dance bands, pointing out that this music was part of the Corporation’s heritage, that it had been instrumental in its revival with series like “Pennies From Heaven”, and that the BBC claimed to serve all sections of the community. I also lodged a complaint on the website. I followed that up on 25th November in the light of the Ross/Brand affair, to say that the BBC no longer deserved to be subsidised by the licence fee, and copied that to my MP.
On 4th December I received a response from Bob McDowall, Executive Producer, Audio & Music Production, BBC Birmingham (The Mailbox, Royal Mail Street, Birmingham B1 1RF). He is the person who took the decision. His reply was the stock answer that he had trotted out already on “Feedback”.
I replied on 11th December to say that his explanation was based on a false premise (a very specific style from a short period), that nobody begrudged giving more air time to swing and big bands, but that he’d resolved one perceived problem by creating a bigger one, that is, by alienating a large part of the core audience.
On 15th December I received a letter from BBC Information, picking up on my letter to the Trust, and reiterating word-for-word the contents of Mr. McDowall’s letter.
Meantime, my MP had responded suggesting I contacted the BBC Trust, and I had emailed it on 17th December attaching copies of my letters to date. The reply on 23rd December said I should pursue the BBC internal complaints procedure, that the Trust could not involve itself at that stage, but that if I was unhappy after that process was exhausted I could ask for the complaint to be escalated.
I replied to BBC Information on 29th December to say that I was not satisfied with the way my complaint had been dealt with, asking formally for it to be escalated, and requesting under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 how many complaints had been logged to date.
On 6th January David Larner, Complaints Co-ordinator, BBC Information, wrote setting out all my correspondence to which he was replying, and turning down my request on the basis that I am neither a licence fee payer nor a UK resident (I live in France) and advising that my request under the FOI Act had been passed to the Policy & Compliance Department.
I replied on 12th January that since the online complaints procedure provided for the country to be specified, and that the requirement for a radio licence had long since been abolished, his argument flew in the face of common sense. I copied that to the BBC Trust, and also asked OFCOM to advise whether it was a proper response.
The BBC Trust mailed on 16th January to say that after discussion Mr Larner was organising the escalated response. On 20th January I wrote again to Mr Larner pointing out that Radio 2’s remit as laid down by the BBC Trust included:
“its music output should include musical genres that do not normally receive wide exposure” and
“it should broadcast a broader range of music than any other major UK radio station”
asked for that to be taken into account also, and copied it to the BBC Trust.
The following day OFCOM mailed that “…we only direct that broadcasters have a complaints procedure in place for recording viewer complaints.”
Having mulled that over, I mailed OFCOM on 25th January to suggest that the BBC complaints procedure was not fit for purpose, giving my reasons for that conclusion and suggesting that some body should investigate the system. I copied that to the BBC Trust, to Mr Larner, and to my MP. I am now waiting for the next stage.
I’ve set this out at some length because the system exists to discourage people from complaining. At BBC level all they do is log complaints, without regard to whether or not they are justified. You will not make any impression, and will have wasted your time, unless and until you can get your complaint escalated to the BBC Trust, Even then there is no guarantee of success, but I urge everyone to keep trying.
Well done Barry, for being so tenacious.
Having received the first “fob-off” from Caroline Snook, i am sorry to say i did not feel like replying as it was clear they were going to employ the means which you have witnessed and i would rather spend the time listening to this lovley, sophisticated, music rather than complaining.
So, although it is true that the initial reponse by Ms Snook achieved BBC’s purpose in my case, the programme and the BBC has effectivley cut its own nose off to spite its face, as we are discovering other output away from the Corporation albeit through the internet. However i would still rather see the programme restored to its former glory.
If your complaints fail merely because you are outside the UK, then i am sure those of us left here would be happy to take up the cudgels again. Please keep us informed.
Regards
Ronaldo
Since I compiled This England’s First and Second Books of British Dance Bands eight years ago (under my media name of Edmund Whitehouse) there has been a dramatic change at the BBC and in society generally. Tradition, heritage and history generally have been trashed from the government downwards and we have entered a plunging musical spiral. Not only the dance bands, a hugely important slice of our popular musical past, has been banished from the airwaves but so too have the equally important genres of light music (Brian Kay) and popular classical (Richard Baker). How could the BBC have been so short-sighted to sack these two wonderful presenters? Also damaged has been organ music (Nigel Ogden) and brass bands (Frank Renton) whose programmes have each been slashed in half.
In respect of the main media channels, ask yourself when you last heard Henry Hall or Ambrose, Peter Dawson or John McCormack, Jelly Roll Morton or Louis Armstrong’s Hot Five, Heddle Nash or Isobel Baillie? Get the picture? They were all long before most of us were born but then so too were Beethoven and Mozart so the stupid arguments put forward by various young producers simply do not hold water.
It gets worse …. BBC Radio 3 is also run by control freaks who don’t like contemporary tuneful serious music so the likes of Ernest Tomlinson, Philip Lane, Matthew Curtis and many more never get a decent chance. I note that Charles Moore from the Daily Telegraph is going to withhold his licence fee so maybe the whole subject might get a public hearing. We can but hope but in the meantime we are not just staring into a musically cultural abyss … we are already toppling head first down it. What musical legacy is the BBC leaving for the future?
Peter Worsley (Assistant Editor, This England magazine, Cheltenham)
Hello Tony,
This is just to say that I have just this moment revisited your home page at Angel Radio, and I can’t tell you what absolute joy I felt at the sight of the ‘Dance Bands’ button. To be able to click on to such a wealth of my favourite music whenever I want is almost beyond my wildest dreams. Thanks , thanks, thanks a million for doing this, and for doing it so speedily.
MIKE MARTIN
P.S. I wonder if Malcolm reads these boards? If so, I hope that he feels suitably impressed. What you have done more than compensates for the crass action of his bosses.
Dear Peter
that’s right, becuase if you can control the past (eg by wiping it out) you can control the future. BBC2 is obviously creting a new, different audience. I felt this very keenly about 10-15 years ago when the station broadcast Jimi Hendrix - formerly the province of Radio 1 and stopped playing easy listening tunes completely.
It is strange though that by denying the existance of Henry Hall for example, the BBC is removing from history its own (near) original test signal from Alexandra Palace and the foundation of its own existance. The emasculation of intelligent shows as listed in the previous posts, certainly is not a Teddy Bear’s Picnic, but rather an act of Frenezi or a Nightmare.
Oddly, in the car last night on Desmond Carrington’s show (he is cheerfully mocked by the later evenng “up to date” presenters as “DJ Desmo”) there were 3-4 Dance Band/near Dance Band tunes.
RE the books by Peter Worsely, are they still in print? Can we do a review on this site?
I have Angel Radio dance bands station on now, the Glenn Miller Hour. How wonderful!
Ronaldo
Message for Ronaldo re ‘This England’s Book of British Dance Bands’ and ‘This England’s Second Book of British Dance Bands’ - I’ve got them both and I can heartily recommend them. As far as I know they’re in ‘This England’s’ current catalogue. Just Google on ‘This England Magazine’. Happy reading!
Many thanks Peter - will have a look!
regards
Ronaldo
Hello again
I thought you might be interested in a couple of statistics, which may help to prove how popular the dance bands still are.
I put the dance band station on air at 3.30am on 26th January.
Exactly 4 days later at 3.30am on 30th January the station has had 60,479 listeners. This figure includes return visitors and does not indicate 60,479 different people.
The average listening period is 2 hours 48 minutes.
Figures are supplied by Viastreaming.net
So now we know that anyone who tells you that the dance bands are no longer popular is talking out of their nether region.
Tony,
That’s amazing wonderful news. What a vindication for us dance band enthusiasts! I really do hope that someone of influence at Radio 2 has read that - they just might have a change of heart and reinstate Malcolm’s dance band segmant. But you know what? Whether they do or they don’t, I’m an Angel listener now. A reinstated dance band slot on Radio 2 would take a poor second place where my listening preferences are concerned. Well done, and thank you.
Mike Martin
Here here!
Dear Paul@Radio Café
There is a rumour going around on the BBC message boards that Malcolm Laycock’s Sunday night show is coming to an end (much as you predicted in letter 8). But is it true, or are these correspondents getting confused with the decision to axe dance bands in favour of swing? They don’t seem to be. Here verbatum is their correspondence - so judge for yourself:
[“I have heard that Malcolm’s brilliant show is to be one the first casualties of the new regime. I sincerely hope not. Anyone else heard anything?”
“Oh Dear… It was bad enough when they changed the format and dropped some of the Dance Band material (complained of on Radio 4’s Feedback…) Now this?
Rumour without substance or based on fact?
“Tony Jacobs said it at a show in Catford on Wednesday.”]
END OF CORRESPONDENCE.
As Tony Jacobs is in the big band music business, he might well have heard something. Have you heard anything Paul?
MIKE MARTIN
If the show were to be axed it would be because the new format (sic) is not attracting as many listeners. Indeed, how could it?
On the other hand, Bob McDowall, who perpetrated the change, is a big band enthusiast. Axing the show completely would surely be an admission that the change has been disastrous.
It really annoys and frustrates me that Malcolm’s show is farmed off to Sunday nights at 10pm (and it’s even worse for David Jacobs, surely our greatest living broadcaster). Presumably if the BBC does want to cancel the show entirely it would be so it can play more Coldplay, Amy Winehouse, Lilly Allen etc. etc., despite this filling the airwaves every evening and throughout much of the day and on loads of other stations too.
And also, presumably it would be with a trendy overpaid possibly ex-TV presenter DJ playing all this “brilliant music”, the sort of “great music” which the media would have you think everyone wants to listen to, all the time. But this is simply not the case.
Just one, paltry half hour of dance bands, at a rotten time of the week, and they had to go and cancel that too. It doesn’t make sense and it is not fair.
The problem must be that those who control our radio have no love or appreciation of music culture, and it is easy to conclude that they are biased and prejudiced. Good music did not start in the 1960s, there was life before the Rolling Stones.
The real shame is that no one can do radio quite as well as the BBC. When it gets it right, it still produces the best radio in the world. We’re not saying it doesn’t get right some of its shows aimed at the new audience, we are not here to criticise the sort of shows by Stuart Maconie and Mark Lamarr and the new music they feature. But it is fair that we should not have this sort of broadcasting ALL the time.
Just some balance, and fairness, and some of what we have had for so long being retained, even if it must be at the least popular timeslot of the week. It really isn’t much to ask for. We should have our own digital station, catering for a new young audience that has been left behind by the BBC, let along many of my older friends who do not complain but miss so much our old Radio 2.
At some stage, we have to show our collective comments to the BBC as unless we keep making our views known, nothing can or will change.
So, please do continue to encourage anyone who feels the same way as we do to write to the BBC or to post their views here, as it is the only hope we have of changing anything. Keep spreading the word!
Thanks again for all your support
Paul
You’re absolutely right, Paul, and unfortunately we’re living in an era of exaggeration, in which a mediocre performer is too often billed as a ‘genius’, a ‘legend’ or an ‘icon’, and real talent is thought to be out of date. That’s if it’s considered at all.
I was watching BBC Breakfast one Saturday, and I heard a journalist (supposedly an intelligent and educated man) say that it was a shame that Amy Winehouse had to behave so badly, as she was a ‘genius musician’. Actually she’s neither a genius nor a musician (my words), but this is the language of contemporary pop culture.
Yes. let’s keep telling those philistines at the BBC how we feel about real quality.
Incidentally, I told one of my students recently about a ‘gig’ I’d done, and she found it amusing that a man of my musical tastes should use the language of pop music. She was surprised when I told her that musicians were talking about gigs long before the rock and roll invasion. Actually, the Oxford Dictionary of slang puts it at c. 1927. Perhaps some people at the BBC might benefit from a little history of popular music, and then they’d realise that there was life before 1960.
Finally, whilst I’m writing emails to Radio 2 I’m enjoying Dance Band Radio very much.
Error, sorry folks, but it possibly shows how irritated I am.
Hello everyone,
If you haven’t clicked on to Angel Radio’s Dance Band Station during the past couple of days (and I find it hard to belive that you have been able to stay away that long) then you will be delighted to hear that the amazing and indefatigable Tony Smith has been beavering away adding new dance band programmes. There are now over 100 programmes ranging in length from 15 minutes to 4 hours! He has also revised the programme listings to give the full menu of dance band goodies on offer.
The reason I am passing on this good news instead of Tony himself is because today he is using his macs instead of the usual PC, and is having difficulty submitting information to the Radiocafe website.
Although I am sure you need no prompting, Tony asks all you dance band buffs to spread the word about Angel Radio to friends, relatives, neighbours - and anyone who will listen.
MIKE MARTIN
Yes, the material is wonderful thanks Mike!
Congratulations to those who have put all the time in; it makes my working day so much more pleasurable.
I have also been spreading the word.
lets hope there is lots of take up.
Kind regards
Ronaldo
We have now added a link to Angel Radio’s Dance Bands site on the Campaign For Real Music homepage, under Radio Stations. As soon as we receive further details, we will include a full feature on the station.
Radiocafe
To revert to the original topic of this thread, Bob Shennan has recently been appointed as the new Controller of BBC Radio 2. I am in the process of writing to congratulate him and to urge him to review Bob McDowall’s decision. If others would care to do likewise it might make some impression.
Barry
could you confirm Mr Shennan’s email address please?
Many thanks
Ronaldo
I can’t, because I don’t have it. When I said I was in the process of writing to him, I meant a letter via the ordinary mail. However, because David Larner, the Complaints Co-ordinator at the BBC, has failed to respond to my letters, I’ve tried emailing david.larner@bbc.co.uk and it hasn’t bounced. So you could try the same trick, that is, bob.shennan@bbc.co.uk Do let us know if it works.
Having been bombarding the BBc with messages to ask what’s happening about my
complaint, I’ve at last received confirmation today that it is being “escalated
to the second level”, or in human speak, that’s it’s been referred to Lewis
Carnie for attention. If I’m dissatisfied with his response I can ask for it
to be referred to the BBC Trust, but they can’t say how long it will take for
him to respond.
So that’s what we’re up against, and I just hope that I’m not a lone voice
crying in the wilderness. I’m sure that many people wrote in to complain in the
first instance, but how many who were dissatisfied with the response have
written back to say so, and to ask for it to to be progressed. If not, please
do so now. If you want to contact David Larner, the BBC’s Complaints
Co-ordinator, his email address is as shown above.
Hello Barry
yes its a war of attrition - i did not reply to Ms Snook because it looked futile, as i said above.
I am wondering about the best format for these sorts of letters (not having had to complain before) and that is where this all gets difficult when time is short.
Do you feel that individual letters, which are more or less well-written are more effective than one comprehensive one signed by a number of persons?
Ronaldo
The message from the editor of ‘Memory Lane’ magazine (who is also urging all concerned to complain in writing) is that individual letters are better, because ‘the BBC are not swayed by “interested groups”‘. It seems to make sense. He also suggests writing to our MPs. I think I shall.
Incidentally, I wonder if everyone is familiar with ‘Memory Lane’, the magazine for dance band enthusiasts. If not, I strongly recommend it.
I’ve just written an ‘old-fashioned’ letter to Bob Shennan. I thought it might survive the post room more successfully than an email.
I would endorse Peter’s approach, except to say that whoever you write to it should clearly state that you wish it to be treated as a formal complaint. I have a feeling that my first letter, to which I received the Bob McDowall standard kit response, was treated as outside the system. It wasn’t until I wrote again, criticising that rersponse, that I received a reply from BBC Information, settting out exactly the same bog-standard letter, but with a patronising introduction. Caroline Snook is responsible to BMcD and would have produced the same reply as instructed by him. If a “second wave” of letters were now to arrive, all individually worded and all expressing profound dissatisfaction/deep unhappiness/bitter disappointment etc. with that response and all asking to be dealt with at the next stage, they would have to react.
It’s heartening to read that members are still harrassing the BBC over the mauling of the programme. Having read what’s been said both here and elsewhere I believe that the BBC is trying to minimise the scale of the reported level of complaints by dealing with them wherever possible outside the process. That’s to say, if you wrote (as I did) to the individuals who should be concerned your letter was either ignored or you received the self-justifying response from Bob McDowall.
I did ask the BBC to let me know under the Freedom of Information Act how many complaints had been received. It took them a month, then they wrote back setting out over two pages why my request was not going to be met.
Could I ask everyone who has written, emailed, or telephoned, to please contact me direct (hirondelle61@wanadoo.fr) to let me know when they took the action and what if any was the response. In other words, how many complaints were treated as such. I promise to respond to everyone who does so, to follow it up and to post again with the result. We need to concentrate our efforts, because the system is designed to discourage people, not to listen openly and respond honestly to audience feedback. You pay the licence fee, and they should listen.
With or without Malcolm Laycock, things just seem to keep getting better and better.
Have you dance band lovers heard about the new FREE music website called “Spotify”? I only heard about it last night (Feb 24) on ‘The World Tonight’. It allows you to select and listen to music of your choice - for free. I went to it expecting to find that it was all pop music - but no! Within a few minutes I was listening to Ambrose and then to the Savoy Orpheans. Better still, it allows you to build up your own on-line library of tracks, and (although I’ve only tried it out for about 20 minutes) I believe it will also play one track after another, so that you can, in effect, have your own dance band programme. There are currently quite a few recordings to choose from, and I understand that these are being added to at a phenomenal daily rate.
Just one word of caution. There are adverts on the free site (you can subscribe to an advert-less version), but so far I have not encountered them - but then few things are perfect in this life.
Anyway, do give it a try. I think you will like it.
MIKE MARTIN
Hi Guys
Just to let you know that I’ve added lots of new programmes to the Angel Dance Bands schedule.
Lots of the old 15 minute live shows from restaurants, lots of documentaries about bands / bandleaders / band vocalists.
During the coming week a continuity announcer will be on air to let you know which programmes are coming up.
I have about another 100 shows which will join the schedule next week.
Bye now
Tony
I have Bob Shennan’s reply to a letter I wrote last month. He says he would like to reassure me that dance bands will continue to feature on ML’s show.
Actually I’ve kept checking the playlists on the Radio 2 website and nothing of the sort has happened.
He reminds me that ‘Radio 2 is targeted at a broad audience and aims to appeal to all age groups over 35′, so stand by for some heavy metal!
He also enclosed a copy of Bob McDowall’s ‘explanation’, which I think we all know by heart, and of which we are also heartily sick.
Frankly, I’ve been getting so much enjoyment in listening to Dance Band Radio from Angel Radio that I care less than ever for the BBC.
Incidentally, I’ve signed up for ‘Memory Lane’ magazine’s next walk around ‘Al Bowlly’s London’, not so much for the exercise as for the opportunity to meet others of the kindred spirit.
Like most people on this board, I too am deeply saddened by the loss of most of Malcolm’s Dance Band music. I’ve written to complain, but I suspect it will be to no avail, the last thing the BBC do is actually pay attention to their listeners. It is such a shortsighted move — as shortsighted as it was when Desmond Carrington was moved from Sunday’s and his format changed.
Hi Tony,
Thanks for the update concerning the new programmes on the Angel Dance Bands schedule, and for making so many exciting additions and modifications. ‘Angel Dance Bands’ is getting so brilliant that even if the BBC were to reinstate the dance band music on Malcolm Laycock’s show, it would come a poor second now.
Thank you for your wonderful station, and for making it available to all us “outsiders” via the internet. May you go from strength to strength.
MIKE MARTIN
I know a number of people on this group filed complaints over the axing of the
British dance bands from Malcolm’s programme. I know of three, myself included,
who’ve exhausted the internal process and are now contacting the BBC Trust
direct. If any others have received responses from the BBC Executive (normally a
Complaints Co-ordinator) then please continue with your complaint, don’t give up
now! And if you haven’t received a response (because the process is extremely
sluggish) you should continue to press for one.
If anyone wants to exchange notes about this, please mail me off-group at hirondelle61@wanadoo.fr
Just to amplify the point about the difficulty of navigating the Complaints Procedure. If you wrote in the first instance to Bob McDowall you’ll have received his standard fob-off letter, which may have been signed by Caroline Snook, acting on instructions. This letter should, but probably didn’t, have referred you to the complaints procedure. If you wrote to anyone else you probably didn’t even get a response!
If you submitted your complaint via the webpage here http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/ then it was handled by Capita to whom the process has been outsourced and who are inundated. They will have replied with a letter which incorporated the McDowell fob-off, and which should have said (but probably didn’t) that if you were unhappy with it you could ask for it to be escalated to the second stage (that is, to the BBC proper).
If you got to the second stage then the reply should have said that if you were unhappy with it you could now go direct to the BBC Trust. This is where I think some complaints have foundered, because the evidence I have is that they have not been dealt with properly.
The BBC Complaints Co-ordinator who is now dealing with it is Stewart McCullough. If you feel that the response to your complaint is unsatisfactory (or even non-existent) then you should contact him to ask him to look into it for you. This can be done by emailing stewart.mccullough@bbc.co.uk marking it high priority and attaching a Read Receipt.
I notice that the Telegraph has picked up on the number of complaints regarding the loss of the dance band element of Malcolm’s show, writing as follows:
“listeners made a big fuss lately about the dropping of the dance band slot from Malcolm Laycock’s Sunday Night Show… Bob McDowall, who chopped that Sunday feature, produces..”
…produces Big Band Special tonight, featuring the music of none other than Geraldo, Ted Heath, Ambrose and Henry Hall. What hypocrisy! Is this merely to placate those of us who have complained, or the height of arrogance?
Incidentally, the Radio Times itself refers to this concert as the first part of a “big-band-radio-era themed” concert, which kind of says it all.
The Telegraph extract comes from Gillian Reynolds’s Radio Choice. Which makes me think it is a waste of effort to write directly to the usual BBC channels. I think we need to target the press, and other areas of the BBC, with our complaints. Perhaps some letters to the Times, Telegraph and Radio Times itself may help?
Paul @ Radiocafe
Good news for all fans of light music! Colin Berry has told us that he is doing another ”A Little Light Music” show on Easter Monday on BBC Three Counties Radio. This is set to be a real treat for those of us who appreciate the wonderful and overlooked light music sound. Colin promises some true light music gems, including what he calls some “class” commercial items too. Show details are:
A Little Light Music
Easter Monday (13 April)
8-10pm
BBC Three Counties Radio
For those who do not live in the Three Counties area, the show will be accessible online and for a week after via the BBC’s excellent Listen Again service. A show not to be missed, so please spread the word!
Paul @ Radiocafe
Going back to the original subject of this thread, namely the axeing of British dance band recordings from Sunday Night At Ten, things have taken a turn for the worse, I’m afraid. Several people, myself included, had managed finally to escalate our complaint to the BBC Trust.
That body has now replied to the effect that editorial decisions on programme content are not in the Trust’s remit - it is a matter for the BBC Executive. Therefore the Trust is not proposing to take any action at all. This blithely ignores the fact that in restricting the spectrum of music available the BBC is in breach of the remit laid down by the Trust for Radio 2.
There is a right of appeal, which I and others intend to pursue.
This is the text of the letter I’ve sent to the BBC Trust:
Dear Mr Prout
Sunday Night At Ten (Your Ref 16423481)
Thank you for your letter dated 3rd April, 2009 advising me that because decisions about which kinds of music to feature in BBC programmes fall within the category of “editorial and creative output”, which is the responsibility of the BBC Executive, it is not appropriate for the Trust to consider that part of my complaint.
I wish to appeal against that determination, on the following grounds:
1. Part of Radio 2’s remit is that it should be targeted at a broad audience, appealing to all age groups over 35, and one of the specific conditions is that it should broadcast a broader range of music than any other major UK radio station. The response I’ve received makes it clear that there is a basic contradiction between those fundamental principles, and the latitude exercised by the BBC. Since it is the Trust which issued the Service Licence, it is not unreasonable to ask the Trust to ensure that its terms are observed. By its nature my complaint relates to one specific genre of music, namely British dance bands. That should not disqualify it, because Radio 2 is in the process of consigning anything recorded prior to 1950 to the dustbin of history, this being but the latest example.
2. The Trust argues that the BBC should have absolute freedom in the exercise of its editorial and creative output (except when it breaches its editorial standards). Given that, there is no reason why the BBC Executive, when challenged, should not produce a cogent argument as to why particular decisions have been taken. The complaints procedure should provide for submissions to be considered objectively by a third party. In this case Bob McDowell produced a stereotyped response which, far from convincing, actually demonstrated that the dance band segment was the more popular part of the programme, because people switched off when it ended. Perhaps because of the weight of complaints received, replies included the phrase “the great British big bands (sic) will continue to be featured”but that assurance has proved to be meaningless.
3. Whilst my appeal about the handling of my complaint should be considered in its own right, I believe it should be taken into account with the larger issue also, because it is symptomatic of the way in which many similar complaints were dealt with by the BBC Executive. As a means to transparency, the Trust laid down that any response to a complaint should inform complainants of the next step in the process for taking the complaint further. Despite that requirement, of the many responses seen by me none has provided that information.
4. That failure to follow laid-down procedure raises a question mark over the outcome.
I know that many listeners felt they had done all they could by complaining in the first instance either to Bob McDowell or BBC Information, because they were not told otherwise. I made it my business to tell as many as I could that they should pursue the matter further, but I could not inform everybody. And how many overseas listeners received a similar response to that which I received from David Larner, and accepted it at face value?
I hope the Trust will allow my appeal, because the BBC Executive has ducked the issue, and viewed objectively the balance of the argument, let alone listener reaction, is against the change. An alternative would be for the Trust to ask the BBC Executive to review its decision in the light of the Service Licence requirements for Radio 2, and the serious flaws in the way in which complaints were handled.
Yours sincerely
Barry McCanna
Geoff Prout
Correspondence Manager
BBC Trust
Room 211
35 Marylebone High Street
London W1U 4AA
Barry
Well done for your continued efforts with the BBC.
The real problem here is that it appears that there is no-one at the BBC who actually seems to a) understand, or b) care. From experience, I know that many of those who work in the music industry these days really know little about music, its origins, its heritage.
A good example is a friend of mine who was for years a music plugger. He was promoting a Lionel Richie album a few years ago, and engaged in some small talk with Lionel’s then UK promotions manager, a woman in her early thirties. My friend commented “I think I preferred Lionel back in the Commodores days”. To which she replied “what is the Commodores?”.
I only wish I had made this story up, but this example is indicative of an attitude pervades all areas of the music industry: song writing, production, promotion, broadcasting and, it seems, now also management of the BBC.
If the BBC execs knew anything about music they would surely be keen to INCREASE the content of pre-1950s music, in particular dance bands and light music. We have two national stations dedicated to classical music, yet not even a single half-hour dedicated to light music or dance bands. Yet these genres represent the link between classical music and the post-1960s era the BBC favours so much. It is a real travesty.
Since all the producers and executives of yesteryear are all being replaced with a different breed, we are simply going to be faced with frustration after frustration if we try to change anything, as the problem lies with the underlying attitude, not the policy.
We can only conclude from what we have seen (from this experience alone) that these people are inherently biased. Trying to change their policies means trying to change their views, and that would be like trying to persuade any bigoted person that their biased views are misplaced and unfair. It is a waste of time.
The new set does not seem to have the experience, intelligence or desire to meet the needs of a large portion of its audience whom quite simply are not being represented by the music programming that Radio 2 currently offers.
Barry, you have rightly gone through all of the correct channels to point out this injustice, and the failure by both the Executive and ultimately the Trust. But look at the resistance, complete disregard of your comments, you have received. The very fact that you, me and others like us have spent our time trying to pursue this alone surely warrants some concession by the BBC. But instead we get excuses, fob-offs and standard letters of response, time after time.
I spoke with a prominent member of the Robert Farnon Society recently, who expressed the same sentiment. He sadly concluded that those at the top levels of management appear to biased against certain types of music perceived as “out of date”.
The Society members have for years complained to the BBC about the non-existence of light music on station that once even had Light in its name (although most Radio 2 execs will probably not know this), and the removal in 2007 of the one, paltry hour of light music on Radio 3.
The members of the Society tend to be in the above 60 age group, but not exclusively (me being one of the exceptions, being in my 30s). The letters they have written to the BBC - mostly by hand - which have been published in their Journal Into Melody publication, have been extremely well written and, like yours Barry, make justifiable points in a polite and eloquent manner. But all of these have received the same, stock response that members here have recently witnessed (and I, too, have received for many years).
It appears that while the BBC is keen to encourage and take note of those who casually frequent their message boards and post passing comments and ill-conceived remarks, it does not like it when some of us challenge the individual and collective failures of those in charge in providing music which they - personally - do not enjoy.
I think this is the issue at hand. For whatever reason, many of the current BBC producers, managers and executives neither like nor understand certain important elements of the music spectrum. We can only conclude that it is bias that prevents them from addressing our valid request for what is in fact a miniscule 30 out of the 10,080 available minutes a week on Radio 2. What we are asking for is less than 0.3% of the available time each week, that has been taken away from us, to be rightfully returned.
Yes, that is all we are asking for, BBC Producers, Trustees and Executives. It is a simple question: please tell us why you are not prepared to reinstate the 0.3% of available time on Radio 2 each week in order to continue to represent a genre of music that not only is desired by many, but which is vital to include if you are to meet your duties to your listeners.
Please can someone at the BBC answer this, and in doing so, give us a good reason why they would not be prepared to do so? I will make it easier for you, dear BBC: why not reinstate the dance band element of the show, and then if you get as many letters of complaint about the reinstatement as you received for its removal, then you can more readily justify your position.
In the meantime, I suggest the following practical tips:
- Write to Gillian Reynolds at the Telegraph, who does seem to understand about this.
- If you know anyone else in the media who may be able to help, let them know.
- Write to the Radio Times - short, concise letters are the only ones they will publish.
- Start taping the remaining few shows that still play music pre-1960, which basically means David Jacobs and Nigel Ogden. I decided to start taping radio shows in around 1989 as I sensed that things were changing at the BBC. How right I was!
I wonder what dear, departed Alan Dell would make of all this were he still alive?
Good luck Barry and all those here - let’s keep up the Campaign For Real Music!
Thanks for all your efforts, everyone.
Paul @ Radiocafé
Many thanks, Paul, for that message, which I’ve forwarded to Bob Shennan, the new Controller of Radio 2. Just to add that I wrote to the Information Commissioner’s Office on 18th February to appeal against the BBC’s refusal to tell me how many complaints they’d received. It took them a month to tell me that they needed a copy of my request and the refusal. Now that they have that information they’ve written to say “Due to the volume of complaints …….. it may be several months before you hear from us”.
Well done and thanks again, Barry (although as I had feared my original maths was incorrect, which I have now corrected!).
Typically depressing response from the ICO, but encouraging (and not surprising) to learns that there have been numerous complaints.
Will be interested to hear if you get any response from Bob Shennan. It’s a shame to have to be so critical of the BBC, since the BBC is the only organisation that can truly do full justice to musical broadcasting (with its resources and lack of advertising interference), and has produced so many wonderful radio shows over the years. It really seems it is all going downhill of late, and I do fear that too much has already been destroyed.
Today I received a letter from the BBC Trust which acknowledges that I was given inaccurate information, first because like every other complainant of whom I’m aware I was not advised of the next stage, and secondly because I was told that the process exists solely to serve UK-based licence fee payers (whereas I live in France). Although I’ve received an apology, that really isn’t the point at issue. Rather more important is the fact that the BBC has tainted the process by failing to follow the requirement laid down by the Trust. Which begs the question, what is the BBC going to do about it? I feel another letter coming on.
Here is the text of my response to the BBC Trust, which I posted off on Tuesday:
Dear Mr. Prout
Sunday Night At Ten (Reference 16423481)
I am in receipt of your letter dated 7th April, advising me that, in effect, the BBC failed to handle my complaint in accordance with the requirements laid down by the Trust, and compounded the felony by supplying me with inaccurate information as to my status, both as regards the complaints process and, gratuitously, in relation to the Trust.
I appreciate that you have elicited an apology on my behalf. With no disrespect to you I’d find it more convincing if it had come earlier, and direct from the Corporation, rather than BBC Audience Services, which manages Stages 1 and 2 of the complaints procedure on the BBC’s behalf. They knew not later than 16th January that they had acted incorrectly in refusing to escalate my complaint. As regards the omission of information, I wrote to the Corporation on 16th February (copy attached).
As mentioned in my letter dated 6th April, I am far from the only person whose complaint was dealt with in an unsatisfactory manner. I know many people who wrote direct to Bob McDowall to complain, and not one was satisfied with his stereotyped response. That’s not because he upheld his decision, which was only to be expected, but rather that he was incapable of mounting an articulate defence of it.
Those who wrote debunking his justification received a letter assuring them that “British dance bands will continue to feature on Malcolm Laycock’s show”. I can understand him wanting to defuse the situation, given the level of furore his decision provoked, but to fob complainants off by making a promise he’s failed to honour is quite unacceptable.
Nor can it be assumed that those complaints with which he dealt were logged, since no such assurance was given (in contrast to those handled by “BBC Information”). As an experienced producer, Mr. McDowall should have set out the next stage in his letter, but it made no reference whatsoever to the complaints procedure.
I and a few others have succeeded in escalating the matter to the Trust despite the fact that we received inadequate advice. Against that, an unknown number did not pursue their legitimate complaints, because the requisite information was withheld, and/or they were declared persona non grata, or they accepted Bob McDowell’s assurance.
I accept that lessons have been learnt, but they cannot be applied retrospectively. The failure by both Bob McDowell and BBC Audience Services to follow correct procedure in dealing with the numerous complaints received has tainted the process irrevocably. Very many former loyal listeners to Sunday Night At Ten received short shrift from the BBC. They will not receive an apology, and even if they did it would not put matters right.
My complaint has not been dealt with in a fair and even-handed manner, and the problems I encountered have not been addressed fully. For all of those reasons I do not regard the belated apology from BBC Audience Services as a satisfactory outcome to my complaint.
It falls to the Trust to lay down the Service Licence requirements for BBC Radio 2, and that is a pointless exercise unless it is prepared also to monitor the situation so as to ensure those requirements are met. It would be bizarre if the category of “editorial and creative output” can be used as some sort of trump card to enable producers to ride roughshod over their public service obligations. That is at the heart of my complaint, and the way in which it has been dealt with by the BBC is totally at odds with the claim “Your complaint is important to us”. I would formally request that this letter be associated with my ongoing appeal to the Trust.
As with my previous letter, I am copying this to Bob Shennan and to my local MP, and hope that it will be possible to arrive at a satisfactory resolution to what has become an ongoing saga.
Just to keep people updated, I’ve had a further exchange as follows:
17 April 2009
Our ref 16423481
Dear Mr McCanna
I am writing with reference to your letters of 6 and 14 April 2009. I
understand that you are appealing against our decision that it is not
appropriate for the BBC Trust to consider your complaint about the change in
the format of the Malcolm Laycock programme on Radio 2.
I will now put your correspondence before the General Appeals Committee so
that it can consider the matter, and I will be writing to you again when it
has reached a decision.
Yours sincerely
Geoff Prout
Correspondence Manager
BBC Trust Unit.
Dear Mr Prout
Sunday Night At Ten (Reference 16423481)
Thank you for your letter of today’s date, and the advance email.
For the sake of absolute clarity, let me reiterate that I am not only
appealing about the recent decision that it is inappropriate for the BBC
Trust to consider my complaint about the axing of British dance band
recordings from the Malcolm Laycock programme “Sunday Night At Ten”. I have
also lodged a formal complaint because that matter had not been dealt with
previously in accordance with the complaints procedure, for which you
conveyed a partial apology to me from BBC Audience Services, and to which I
have responded. Therefore both appeal and complaint remain outstanding.
Yours sincerely
Barry McCanna
Thanks to Caroline Snook, I’ve now been able to access the playlist for the show Clare Teal presented last Sunday, which featured two (yes, that’s right) records by British dance bands. Having seen what was played, that is, Jack Hylton “Me And Jane In A Plane” and Jock McDermott “Dinah” (vocal Al Bowlly), I’ve written back to say it’s a pity that nothing was featured from any of the dance band CDs that have been issued since Bob McDowell imposed his infamous ban last November.
If anyone else wants to add their own comment, here is the website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00k14dp
with a rather worrying picture of Malcolm sporting a gramophone horn in his left ear!
Hi Everyone
Just to let you know that it’s Benny Goodman Day on Angel Radio today (30th May) - lots of new programmes dedicated to all aspects of Benny’s music.
Best wishes
Tony
Marvellous! thanks Tony
tuning in now!!!
RDS
Hello Folks
Her Majesty the Queen has today, as part of the celebrations to comemorate her Coronation on 2nd July 1953, announced that Angel Radio is to receive the highest honour that can be bestowed on a voluntary group, the Queen’s Award for Voluntary Service, which is equivalent to an MBE. . . . . . . . so it’s now dance band music by Royal Command.
Richly deserved Tony!
May we offer all of you at Angel Radio our congratulations - very well deserved indeed!
Tony - if you can send us through an article on Angel Radio and details of the station, we will gladly post this on here.
All the best from all at Radiocafe
Mike Martin
I think that Executive Producer Bob McDowall may have shot himself in the foot, and at the same time provided some valuable ammunition for those campaigning for the return of British dance band music to Radio 2.
In an interview in the current edition of ‘Feedback’ (which is still available on ‘Listen Again’ for the next three days) he was asked about another of his programmes ‘The Organist Entertains’ which is celebrating its 40th anniversary with a special programme tonight (June 23rd). Organ music is not my personal cup of tea, but what he had to say was very interesting. Here is what he said:
PRESENTER/INTERVIEWER: “In recent years Radio 2 has been seen as aiming at a younger audience, so is ‘The Organist Entertains’ a bit of an anachronism? Bob McDowall makes the point that the programme’s audience continues to hold up.”
BOB MCDOWALL: “The fact of the matter is that if you do look at Radio 2 - and the people who make Radio 2 will tell you this as well - there are all sorts of things going on in that Network. You’ve still got ‘Friday Night is Music Night’ – that’s after how long, I don’t know, nearly sixty years or something? You’ve got ‘The Organist Entertains’. You’ve got brass bands featured every week – ‘Listen to the Band’. You’ve got programmes like ‘Big Band Special’. There’s still an awful lot going on in the Network which definitely doesn’t fall into the ‘trendy’ category if you like.”
PRESENTER/INTERVIEWER: “And is it important, do you think, that Radio 2 does continue to carry these specialist programmes?”
BOB MCDOWALL: I think it’s absolutely hugely important that Radio 2 carries on with these specialist genres because, if you actually removed those from the mix of Radio 2, I think the whole reason for its existing, and the whole reason of what Public Service Broadcasting is all about, and what its remit is supposed to be would be hugely weakened if programmes like ‘The Organist Entertains’ were no longer there.”
To my mind, if Bob McDowall is being totally sincere and really believes what he says, then surely it follows that the axing of the dance band section from Malcolm Laycock’s programme must have been an unfortunate oversight, and one which can easily be remedied.
As an Executive Producer, should Mr McDowall not know the precise age of Friday Night is Music Night? If he doesn’t, I can tell him it is fifty four years - two older than me!
I always thought that the saying “no pressure, no relief” applied, however given all the letter writing and comment generated by this forum and others seems to have reinforced my belief that the BBC is just as prone to political spin techniques as the politicians it interviews.
I cherish Radio 2 for the diversity it has brought us, but the specialist programmes are now like the red squirrel: clinging on in enclaves and suffering under the onslaught of Radio 1 style dumbing down. With the diversity going/gone, what is the point of Radio 2? It’s just a slightly older format Radio 1, Capital, Radio London etc etc.
I must confess I do not see the logic of the BBC’s argument as advanced here or in letters to several of us. Have we not been vociferous enough, I wonder? I think we have been loud enough, but though we appear to the casual observer to have been given a fair heairng, I believe as is so often the case, that the decision was taken ages ago and that the (hollow) justification followed.I do not mean to sound defeatist, but would welcome input from soemone who knows how this sort of case needs to be put to the BBC to achieve our relatively small request.
thanks
RDS
A number of people, including me, managed despite all the obstacles to get our complaints escalated to the BBC Trust. In response, we were advised that because the complaint was deemed to fall into the category of “editorial and creative output” it was not appropriate for it to be considered by the Trust.
I appealed against that decision, and have just received advice that my appeal will be considered on 16th July. In the meantime I had received a follow-up reply from a BBC Complaints Co-ordinator regarding the escalation process and the timeliness of responses. In the course of which he wrote ” …a change in the musical direction or content of s programme isn’t something that falls under the remit of the Editorial Complaints Unit….”
I have brought this clear dichotomy to the attention of the BBC Trust and asked for it to be taken into account in considering my appeal.
So we are in the Kafka-esque situation where to remove a show entirely gives grounds for appeal but to keep the show and change it substantially does not….
Several months after the event, the BBC Trust, meeting in closed session, deliberated about my appeal against their decision not to consider the complaint about the axeing of British dance bands from Sunday Night At Ten (sorry that’s so convoluted, but it sums up the process). They decided to reaffirm their earlier decision that (to paraphrase) “editorial decisions …. are the responsibility of the BBC Executive”. They add that the Trust is the final arbiter and the matter is now closed.
Just a reminder that currently the BBC Trust is carrying out a public consultation about the way in which Radio 2 fulfils its remit (or not). I know many people will have made their views known already, but time is running out because the consultation period ends at the end of this month. If you’ve not done so already, you can access the questionnaire via this link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/consult/open_consultations/index.html
Remember, your voice counts (or so they say).
Thanks Barry
I have really let fly!
I thought the questions interesting but I could in effect only offer negative opinions on the output. I have stressed thehy look at Angel to see how a radio station could be put together (with adaptations for a wider audience).
I would urge people to repsopnd to the survey asap and to be very candid, but polite!
regards
RDS
Hear, hear! I’ve done much the same.
PRB
Malcolm Laycock has just said ‘take care’ for, he says, the last time.
I am appalled to hear Malcolm Laycock say that this Sunday night’s show (27/07/09) was his last.
The poor guy is in a straight-jacket. Since Dec 2008 he had no say in the content of his show. He and his listeners love the pre-WWII British dance bands but Malcolm was told to drop that from his playlist in Dec 2008.
So, I suspect Malcolm has just had enough of his new producer or what his producer has been told to do.
Roy Oakshott was the BBC producer in the hey-day of the British dance bands music revival on R2. OK, Roy continues to provide us with excellent playlists on Russell Davies’ show but in 2009 we have no dedicated British music programme for pre -1940 music, the era when British dance music was regarded as the best.
John W
Hello again dance band fans
Sorry to say John beat me to it. An end of an ear - my radio 2 ear, that is. I was shocked to hear the announcement at the end of the show.
I do hope Malcolm will return to another station: please can anyone who hears anything about a return, please post!
regards
RDS
That’s very sad to learn. I haven’t “listened again” to last night’s show, and wonder what the reason is for his departure. He wil be very much missed by his fans.
As RDS requests above, please can you let us know if you have any details of Malcolm’s departure and news of whether he may return elsewhere.
In the meantime, NOW is the time to fill in your BBC Radio 2 feedback questionnaires as the consultation closes on Thursday:
https://consultations.external.bbc.co.uk/departments/bbc/bbc-radio-2-and-bbc-6-music/consultation/consult_view
We’ve posted extensive comments. To be honest, we are not overly optomistic that much will change as a result. But the more who provide the same message, the more chance we have I guess.
I share your sense of indignation that as a result of axing our music the BBC has lost the services of a very dedicated presenter. I intend to write to Bob Shennan to express my reaction to the news, and would urge others to do the same. It’s a very sad day for Malcolm, for the British dance bands, and for Radio 2.
The BBC host on the Radio 2 messageboard has stated:
Malcolm Laycock is indeed leaving Radio 2 and the Sunday night big band weekly show (2200pm – 2300pm)
The decision to leave was Malcolm’s - Malcolm decided to leave BBC Radio 2 for personal reasons and everyone at Radio 2 respects his wishes, he’ll be greatly missed.
His words as said on air on Sunday night:
“And from me Malcolm Laycock, with great regret, I have to say that this is my last ‘Sunday Night at 10’ programme. It’s been a pleasure and a privilege to sit in this chair every week for the last 14 years. I’ve made many friends through the programme, and many of you have been kind enough to write to me and send me messages of encouragement. Thank you – I’m going to miss our weekly get-togethers. And I must thank, too, my original producer Roy Oakshott, and my current producer Caroline Snook. So, finally, I leave you with the band who’ll be playing at the Concorde Club on Wednesday, the ‘Back to Basie’ Orchestra, and another classic – Neal Hefti’s “Flight of the Foo Birds”. So for the last time – take care!”
Bob Shennan, Controller Radio 2 and 6 Music says:
‘We are sad that Malcolm has chosen to leave Radio 2 after 14 years of outstanding service as a well respected and much loved presenter and producer. We wish him all the very best of luck in the future.’
Will this mean the end of big band music on Radio 2?
Big band music will continue to have a place in the Radio 2 schedule. ‘Sunday Night at 10′ continues as does Big Band Special on Monday nights. In addition to our regular output, there will also be a three part series on the golden age of dance bands in the 1930s later in the year.
Who will replace Malcolm Laycock?
Clare Teal was due to present the show from Sunday 2 August for 5 weeks as Malcolm was due to take some leave; Clare will continue to present these shows as previously planned. We will announce a replacement presenter in due course.
I hope this information is helpful.
To Malcolm, we wish him all the best in the future!
So Malcolm’s personal reasons could be health or BBC-realted
John W
Thanks for the update, John.
Looks like Clare Teal will take over the show. And the three-part series on dance bands appears to be an easy way of dealing with all the flak from disgrunted listeners. I can just imagine the BBC letter now: “We have responded to to demand from listeners with a series on dance bands… blah blah blah…”.
Never sure why the BBC replaced the excellent Shelia Tracy on Big Band Special. Sheila went on to present a big band show on the now closed Saga Radio, so clearly wasn’t ready to retire. This was typical of recent BBC 2 thinking. Get rid of all your older, experienced professionals and reel in a load of young TV personalities instead. At least Clare is a half decent broadcaster and musician. But if you look across the board, Radio 2 management could easily be accused of ageism. For example, look at how many decent R2 broadcasters of yesteryear have been farmed off to local radio: Bill Rennels, Colin Berry, Steve Madden, Chris Stuart to name just a few off the top of my head. And how many recent additions to the line up have gone up the local radio ranks? Where is the next David Jacobs or Ken Bruce going to come from? From TV or ex-Radio 1, it seems.
I had the privilege of meeting Malcolm a few years ago and what an incredibly nice chap he is, with an unrivalled knowledge of music, too. He deserves much credit for what he has done over the past 14 years, and for the rare ability to broadcast as though he was talking individually to each and every one of us. I would guess it is due to personal reasons and nothing to do with BBC politics at all - let’s just hope he has not left due to health issues.
He will be missed by all of us, and his departure has only set our cause back some.
Paul
I have been unable to find Malcolm Laycock’s own personal website to confirm
that he has posted a message there, but anyway Malcolm has replied to me saying,
>>
Thank you for your message.
Yes. You are right….I was indeed ordered to drop the British dance bands. That was just one part of the long-running disputes I have had with Radio 2. I will not go into the details, but I understand that Radio 2 has said on its ‘message board’ pages that I have left “for personal reasons”. Not so.
I have issued the following :-
“I am very saddened to have ended my ‘Sunday Night at 10′ programmes after 14 years. I did not want to leave but unfortunately Radio 2 was not able to offer me a satisfactory new contract, which left me with no alternative but to withdraw. The music, the musicians and the audiences have been my life and my pleasure since my first big band and swing programmes over 30 years ago. For the moment I shall take a rest and draw breath. But who knows? Sometimes when one door closes, another one opens….!”
Kind regards
Malcolm Laycock
It may be as well that we do not jump to conclusions about work related issues and just wish him and is family the very best. We will, I am sure,all want to thank him for the great pleasure that his broadcasts have given us over the years.
Gary
John - thanks for the update. I’d like to say I cannot believe it, but unfortunately I can. What a shameful end to one of the only truly worthwhile shows worth listening to on Radio 2. I hope something works out for Malcolm, he deserves much better than this.
I sometimes wonder why we bother with Radio 2 any more, as it is clearly a lost cause.
I’m just glad I have many recordings of dear old Alan Dell, Malcolm and many others, which I will be able to enjoy many years after the BBC has destroyed what was once the finest radio station in the world.
It’s the younger generation who will actually suffer the most as they will not be as fortunate as we were to live through an era of fine radio with superb broadcasters and quality, real music. I’ve learned so much from Alan and Malcolm about those wonderful early recordings and the band-leaders and singers.
A very sad day for fans of good radio and good music.
Paul
What is going on?
I have listened to Malcolm Laycock on a Sunday evening for over 10 years and have enjoyed the programme immensely. I also repeat the programme throughout the week on the internet.
We are now in a situation where there are no other big band programmes to listen to and what are they replacing this with? Surely one hour in twenty four once a week is not much to ask.
We pay the licence money and what do we get back?
I tried to email bbc and it said an error has occurred. It certainly has and we all know who she is!
D Battye (Mr)
BBC RADIO TWO which was Thr BBC light Programme .I have listened since I was about 14 years old. I have been a guest on Jack Payne’s British Band Box and have had the pleasure to be invited to BBC shows with Joe Loss in the late 50’s ( What a Band !!! ) as FOR THE BBC’s British Dance Band programmes ;1st Dave Gell ,Alam Dell and then Malcolm Laycock - I have listened to them all over the years I am now 71 - Had a go at the Beeb over no British Big Bands , got no a sence from C Snook - now they killed the programme completely - Discovered Angel Radio some time back - a pity for the BBC who have or had a vast vintage collection of 78 records - Radio Two have lost the thread never mind I still have all my Real to Real tapes of the Band Parade Programmes in the 70’s & my own 78’s. regards Jack
Above name should read Jack Anthony R
Jack, I listened to Radio 2 since it began in 1967, Light Programme was always on in our kitchen when I was a young child. I don’t know the name David Gell, can you tell me when he had programmes on radio 2 or the Light Programme?
I’ve enjoyed some of the streaming programmes from Angel Radio too.
As well as Angel Radio there is also a weekly programme of British Dance Band music that I produce myself. There are still over 30 programmes (1/2 hour each), in the same format as Malcolm Laycock’s, that can be downloaded from here:
http://www.r2ok.co.uk/dancebandshow.htm
Hope you enjoy!
John Wright
John
many thanks for the pointer to your site! I am going to download and take on holiday!!Currently listening to the first show: i like your presenting style. MORE PLEASE!
also, do you kow if they can be made to play via internet radio “play on demand”. You may have to register with Reciva website to do this.
Jack
yes, i am glad we have pesonal recordings, but that is part of the problem: they are too personal and noone else gets to hear them,with the reslt that there is no diffusion among the wider public. This will mean that the music will eventually peter out, i am sad to say.
I really think the BBC ought to give us a weely hour even on Radio 3.
Strange how what was popular music is being treated as elitist highbrow music……….
RDS
Hello again everyone
John, if you would like your dance band programmes to be added to Angel Radio’s output please could you send me the set on mp3 CD, or whatever format is easiest for you, together with a brief note giving me permission to use them. I’d be happy to air them.
If anyone else would like to present dance band shows on Angel Radio please get in touch. Let’s get a few new voices on air, even if you only fancy doing one show of your favourites.
I’m sorry if anyone has noticed that the loop of programmes has been round and round too many times. I’ve been so very busy keeping our main station on air that I’ve let Angel Dance Bands lapse a bit . . . . . I will start adding and updating again very soon.
I’ve been in touch with Malcolm and hopefully we can give him the contract that BBC Radio 2 refused him. . . . . . after he’s had a well deserved rest.
Angel Radio has received lots of messages about Malcolm’s departure, including one from John Tree, founder member of the Zimmers and Angel Radio’s Jazz & Swing man who said “Radio 2 is an absolute disgrace”
That’s all for now. I hope to hear from all you potential Dance Band deejays soon.
Best wishes
Tony at Angel Radio
Hi to John Wright; Thanks for link to your internet Big Band programme listened this morning- liked the quality of 78 repro- what remastering programme are you using . I use Magix but this is more suited to LP 45’s & C tape and content I get good results if the 78 is in good condition but it’s not very good at cleaning up bad 78’s where-as Magix is excellent on LPs & 45’s. AS for the Radio presenter Dave Gell was around in the 50’s n 60’s Canadian born - unfortunately he went home to stay- I think he preceeded with the same style of programme as Alan Dell with a Big Band programme of a mixed bag American ,British and other EU Bands this was on BBC Light Programme-was with Radio Lux/rg before- see Dave gell -Wikipedia free encyclopedia 23 may 2009. —To Renaldo thanks for your comments I agree the beeb needs pressure from the real music lovin’ public. regards Jack
Tony,
Let me have a think about providing my shows for Angel Radio.
Jack,
The records for the first 9 of my dance band shows were ‘restored’ by a colleague. From show #10 I’ve used a new version of Sound Rescue software from Algorithmix for noise reduction. I then use freeware Audacity to convert to mp3 and assemble the 35min show.
After I posted my message I realised that I do have David Gell included on the Radio 2 Timeline page here:
http://www.r2ok.co.uk/R2_timeline.htm
Seems he presented various shows but I don’t have details what years/programmes he played dance/big bands.
John
I think you may mean the brilliant Dave Gelly, who presented many fantastic shows on Radio 2 and is a seasoned jazz musician. I have his half-hour profiles of Ella Fitzgerald, Bing Crosby and Dick Haymes from the late 80s on tape, and they are superb.
Dave has his own website:
http://www.davegelly.co.uk/biog.htm
A truly great broadcaster, another one who should still be on Radio 2.
Paul
Sir,
most of what i feel has been expressed a lot better than i can, but like so many others I came across the program one Sunday night by accident, and have been a dedicated listener ever since. The dance band era produced some of the worlds greatest musical talent and now someone has decided to rob the youth ( or some of them) of today, a chance to enjoy and glean from it the enjoyment we have. This music seems now destined to fade out and gather dust on the record shelves. Can music that has been played for 80 years on the air be that bad…NO. Most of the modern music just doesnt seem to be musical. one cannot just listen to it and enjoy. it seems that one has to be disgruntled and angry with life to enjoy listening to it. The dance bands reflected a happier time whilst the world was in kaos. well the world is still in kaos so keep playing them auntie BBC and help spread happiness again.
TO PAUL =No I don’t mean Dave Gelly he has played at the Dulwich Royal British Legion Club where we have the Joe Mudel trio on the 3rd Saturday of each month with Rodney Mendoza Piano. Dave Gell was a BBC light Programme Presenter late 50’s - 60’s & did some very good Big Band Programmes Regards Jack,
Being well past retirement age and having been a musician, Monday was the night to listen to Alan Dell. After that it was Malcom Laycock late on Sunday night still something to look forward to. Now the BBC has taken that away. Dont older listeners views count anymore? Malcom had such a lovely manner.
Well said, Frank - it is very easy to conclude that the BBC is indeed not interested in the views of older listeners.
The BBC tells us that Radio 2 is aimed at the “over 35s”. However, it seems that it is only interested in a certain type of over 35. The problem must stem from management who are clearly either biased or poorly educated in musical heritage. And there is clear evidence of this. For example, why does Bob Shennan control both Radio 2 and Radio 6? It is surely no co-incidence that the music selection on these two stations is all too similar these days.
This is the sort of twoddle the BBC comes out with to justify this decision:
“Bob’s energy, enthusiasm and passion for Radio 2 will ensure that the station remains creative and vibrant, and continues to offer unique programmes to the widest possible audience.”
Widest possible audience? Hardly. Where is the music for the audience on this page here? Where is the light music, the American popular song and, of course, the dance band era? The following are also good examples of Radio 2 failing to offer unique programmes to the widest possible audience:
- Much of the music content is identical to that which can be found on commercial or local radio. Compare the type of music that is played for the majority of the day to that which is offered by Magic, Smooth or Gold, and on BBC local radio, and it is hardly “unique”.
- The only show playing some light and popular song is David Jacobs show. But this is farmed off to the 11pm slot.
- No light music at all
- No dance band music at all
- Very little to no music from the 1950s
- Very little to no Sinatra, Crosby et al
- The removal of the New Country show last year
- Very few broadcasts by the BBC orchestras
- The removal of the BBC Radio Orchestra
- The removal of many of the older broadcasters
- Nothing specifically aimed at older listeners.
Incidentally, the BBC presents the following as Bob Shennan’s CV:
“Bob was Director of Radio at Channel 4 from April 2008, where he led the strategic planning for Channel 4’s diversification into radio, defining and developing three new radio station concepts as brand extensions within Channel 4 (E4 Radio/4Music Radio/Channel 4 Radio).
Previously, he was Controller of Radio 5 Live from 2000 to 2008. Under his leadership, it reached a record audience of just under seven million listeners.
He oversaw the launch of sister network, BBC 5 Live Sports Extra and also had managerial responsibility for the BBC Asian Network.
Prior to taking the helm at Five Live, Shennan held a variety of senior roles in the BBC including Head of Sport.
In this role he was responsible for overseeing all sport on BBC One, BBC Two, BBC News 24, BBC National and Local radio and the BBC’s Sport Online.
He is Deputy Chair, Fellow and Trustee of the Radio Academy and was educated at Cambridge University and Lancaster Royal Grammar School. ”
Correct me if I am wrong, but where is there anything in his background that suggests he has any idea of what music the nation would like to hear? Does his CV suggest he has any kind of background in music radio?
What has happened at Radio 2 in the last few years has been nothing less than shameful. I have no idea if Bob Shennan is a competent manager, but the buck surely stops with him for the despicable decisions which have been taken regarding the dance band show. It is unacceptable and unfair.
Where are the next generations of Roy Oakshots going to come from?
Frank
spot on: Malcolm had a wonderful manner. When i met him a few years ago he said he was aware that musicians enjoyed listening to his show on the way home from an engagment and was realy chuffed about it. There was a certain auncular warmth about his shows.
But you are more spot on (!) regarding ignoring the views of older folks: ok i am not one yet but the large number i come into contact with enjoy chatting to me about the dance band era and their favourite musicians, and so do i. Not all of them are as computer literate as you so as to be able to use the “listen again” feature in radio 2 or to get internet radio and are thus deprived of good listening.
I am convinced that radio 2 doesn’t realy give a fig. At least Angel does, but as i say, unless you are int eh catchment area you can only get it on the internet.
The battle is not over yet……….
Regards
RDS
Brian
yes, i agree, happy music for troubled times: it has worked before so why not now?regards
RDS
I am perhaps in a minority on this thread in welcoming the full hour of big band music in Malcolm’s programme as of January. It’s not that I have anything against British dance bands, just that I prefer Miller, Kenton, Shaw & Co.. I began my listening in the early 1970s to Alan Dell, when he started his 90 minute Monday evening slot with half an hour of dance bands then had an hour of big bands! What a treat that was. Usually the first half of the big band hour consisted of news and reviews and the second half hour focussed on a particular band or theme. I still have some of those shows on tape. With Alan’s passing, I wondered who could possibly fill his shoes, but along came Malcolm Laycock who put his own stamp on the proceedings and has done an excellent job ever since. I was very disappointed to hear his closing announcement last Sunday. I once had reason to contact the show and was pleased to receive a personal reply from Malcolm rather than the reply from his producer or production assistant that I might have expected.
I rather doubt that we will ever again experience what I perceive as the heyday of Radio 2, and as the established presenters retire, get levered out or drop off the perch I doubt that the BBC will replace them with people of similar gravitas. As the JYs, John Dunns, Richard Bakers, etc. depart they seem to be replaced by members of the departed Michael Jackson’s fan-base - who ever thought Steve Wright appropriate for Radio 2? Or Chris Evans? I’m sure they and their inane ramblings have an appreciative audience (and good luck to them) but should they really be spouting their nonsense from the platform of Radio 2? I think not. Some may allude to Radio 2’s “pipe and slippers” outlook on life, but if that’s what a lot of us want, why deny it to us?
Sorry to go on - just the ramblings of a Radio 2 listener who feels the rug steadily being pulled from under him!
Best wishes,
Steve
Steve, you sum up - very succinctly and accurately - precisely what has gone wrong with Radio 2 . There are many of us who seem to be saying the same thing, both here and directly to the BBC.
Thanks to you and to everyone for their contributions to the Campaign.
All the best
Paul
I was somewhat surprised and deeply concerned to hear that Malcolm Laycock will no longer be presenting ‘Sunday Night At Ten’. Bearing in mind Malcolm’s extensive knowledge as well as his numerous contacts within the Big Band Swing Era, I would have thought that the BBC would have valued and treasured his services for many years to come.
As the Chairman of The Ted Heath Music Appreciation Society and Secretary of The South Wales Big Band Society, I have been bombarded with telephone calls from members and non members alike who want to know just what is going on at the BBC. There is a growing perception among the people who treasure the type of music that Malcolm Laycock, Desmond Carrington, David Jacobd and Russel Davis present, that the BBC is no longer interested in this generation of of people who for sixty or more years have religiously paid their licence fee. There is also a widespread feeling that Radio 2 is becoming an extension of Radio 1.
When Claire Teal took over the Malcolm’s programme for a few weeks it was only too obvious that whilst she is a competent presenter that she does not have the background and depth of knowledge to present a programme to ‘expert’ listeners.
As a close friend of Malcolm’s, I have to say that I do not take on board the official line that it was Malcolm’s wish to ‘give up’ the show. I am aware that it was a BBC decision and if nothing else the BBc should be more truthful in its Public Relations output.
Charles Jackson
Chairman The Ted Heath Music Appreciation Society
Secretary The South Wales Big Band Society
Hi all I’ve just forwarded all the e-mails sent to me re - campaigne for real music to Caroline Snoot who is on Holiday till 10th Aug,Just incase the Beeb is unaware of how we all feel about Malcolm and their policy over Vintage Dance Music from Jack
Correction, she’s Caroline Snook. And the person you should be aiming them at is Bob Shennan who is the Controller of Radio 2. His email address is bob.shennan@bbc.co.uk
I rather like Charles Jackson’s neat summary of the problem, ie that Radio 2 is becoming an extension of Radio 1.
Clare Teal is an excellent performer but has yet to serve a full apprenticeship before she can be regarded (in my eyes) as an accomplished presenter, though I think she has her work cut out trying to drum up enthusiasm for some of the tuneless and nondescript music produced at times by the BBC Big Band.
For no particular reason, I was just reminded of Alan Dell’s big band programme theme tune - the Million Airs’ ‘Five Flats Furnished’, a mickey-take of Benny Goodman’s ‘Six Flats Unfurnished’. I understood that the formation of the Million Airs band was the result of a split in the ranks of the Syd Lawrence Orchestra, but does anyone know for sure? (Sorry - rather off-topic)
Best wishes,
Steve
SORRY BARRY - Re Caroline Snook T’was a slip on the wrong key in semi darkness thanks for Bobs e-mail address. regards Jack
I have read with interest all the comments about Malcolm Laycock and I too will miss him deeply. His show was my focal point of an excellent Sunday evening, from Alan Titchmarsh to Russell Davies, Malcolm and David Jacobs (who is 83!). I think all the big band societies should write to the BBC controller and MPs about the situation. We’ve seen the demise of weekday evenings already and the Sunday lunchtime slot of Michael Parkinson (replaced by boring Michael Ball), then the cackling of Elaine Page (replacing Desmond Carrington) with nothing through to 7.30 worth listening to.
BBC radio 2 seems to have been taken over by automatums interested only in so-called younger audiences and follows television into the most appalling dumming down. HELP!
David Tinker
The plot thickens! This is the text of what I’ve just posted to the Radio 2 message board, having been advised that my earlier post, the text of which appears underneath, has been removed (after being hidden for 4 days).
Dear Radio 2 Moderator
This statement appears in the fourth message on the thread, from Peta, who
would have been advised what to post:
“The decision to leave was Malcolm’s - Malcolm decided to leave BBC Radio 2
for personal reasons and everyone at Radio 2 respects his wishes, he’ll be
greatly missed.”
My post, which you’ve removed, set out a statement issued by Malcolm Laycock
(which you can check with him at the above email address) correcting that
official announcement, which was incorrect. So I’m not impersonating
anybody, rather it’s the BBC itself which is guilty of misrepresenting
Malcolm’s position.
Over to you to sort out the mess. Meantime, I shall post a copy of this
message on the Radio 2 message board. How long will it take you to moderate
it? Less than 4 days, I hope.
Oh, I forgot, I shall also post it on the British dance band Yahoo group,
and the Radiocafé thread.
—– Original Message —–
From:
To:
Cc:
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 4:45 PM
Subject: Your BBC Posting has been removed
> Dear BBC Community member,
>
> Thank you for contributing to a BBC community site. Unfortunately we’ve
> had to remove your content below
>
> We cannot find this content on any official website, or within any
> official statement by Mr Laycock, so think that it may be a personal
> email, which would be both personal and copyright.
>
> This post has therefore been failed for copyright reasons.
>
> You can read the BBC messageboards House Rules in full here:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/newguide/popup_house_rules.html
>
> Please be careful when you copy the text of someone else’s message into
> your post. If their posting is subsequently removed, your posting may also
> have been removed, as it contained a copy of their failed text.
>
> If you can rewrite your contribution to remove the problem, we’d be happy
> for you to post it again.
>
> Please note that anyone who seriously or repeatedly breaks the House Rules
> may have action taken against their account.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/newguide/popup_breaking_rules.html
>
> Regards,
>
> The BBC Communities Team
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/newguide/
>
> URL of content (now removed):
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F14126215?thread=6788788&post=83464901#p83464901
>
> Subject:
> Malcolm Laycock
>
> Posting:
> Malcolm has since clarified that he did not leave for personal reasons,
> and has issued the following statement:
>
> “I am very saddened to have ended my ‘Sunday Night at 10′ programmes after
> 14 years. I did not want to leave but unfortunately Radio 2 was not able
> to offer me a satisfactory new contract, which left me with no alternative
> but to withdraw. The music, the musicians and the audiences have been my
> life and my pleasure since my first big band and swing programmes over 30
> years ago. For the moment I shall take a rest and draw breath. But who
> knows? Sometimes when one door closes, another one opens….!”
>
>
Thanks for the update, Barry - what a pitiful state of affairs. At least you can always tell it how it is here with no fear of moderation. We avoid those message boards now, as were continually being “moderated” for having an opinion the BBC seemed to disagree with. So we started our own message board instead!
It seems we could all do with a little musical therapy just now. So, following Brian’s lead, to make us feel a little happier and to help forget about this sorry situation for a while, if you click the music player at the end of the original article above, you will be treated to a full Alan Dell Dance Band Days show from 2nd July, 1979. Hard to believe that is over 30 years ago.
This broadcast is available here for a strictly limited time only, so enjoy it while it lasts.
For those interested, the track listing is:
Today I Feel Happy - Percival Mackie
Mona Lisa - Al Bowlly/Jack MacDermott
Lying in the Hay - Henry Hall
Blue Moments - Bertini/Jack Plant
I Have Eyes - Geraldo/Eve Beck
I Promise You - Hugo Rignold
At The Military Ball - Joe Daniels
Happy listening, dance band fans!
Radiocafe
So now we know the truth, the manner in which the BBC have handled the Sunday Night at Ten issue and the way in which they have treated Malcolm Laycock is surely a very good example of ‘constructive dismissal’. Its a pity that the BBC do not understand that the customers (listeners) views are the ones to be considered.
Having just returned from holiday, I was greeted with news of the end of Malcolm Laycocks Sunday night programme. This is devastating news and Sunday Night at Ten will never be the same whoever takes over. I have listened to his programme for the past fourteen years on the BBC and before that with his programme on Radio London on Sunday afternoons. His knowledge of the music he plays and his presentation can never be matched.
The BBC are supposed to cater for everyones taste in music, we now know this is not the case. I for one will never tune to the BBC again.
As Chairman of the Newport Nostalgia Music Society, I speak for all our members when we can only say, Thank you Malcolm for so many years of wonderful music and we hope this is not the end and an other music station will sign you up and enable us to continue with this great music.
This is the text of a letter I’ve sent today:
An open letter to Mr. Shennan, Controller, BBC Radio 2
3rd August 2009
Dear Sir,
Sunday Night At Ten
You will recall that I wrote to you on 9th February this year to escalate my complaint about Mr McDowell’s arbitrary decision to axe British dance band recordings from the long-running and popular programme “Sunday Night At Ten”.
At the time I found it extremely disappointing that you refused to act, given the significant volume of complaints that were generated, the lack of any logic in Mr McDowell’s response, and the loss of a large part of the listening audience. It became clear from my subsequent correspondence with the BBC Trust that this was regarded as an editorial decision which it was not appropriate for them to consider, and that was the end of matter.
But sadly not, because Malcolm Laycock’s dignified announcement on last Sunday’s programme made it clear that he’d had enough, and that this was the end of an era. He’d presented the programme for 14 years, built up a considerable following, and his knowledge and enthusiasm are unrivalled, so why have you now axed him? (thereby alienating the rest of the listening audience).
I quote from the Radio 2 Message Board (my italics):
“The decision to leave was Malcolm’s - Malcolm decided to leave BBC Radio 2 for personal reasons and everyone at Radio 2 respects his wishes, he’ll be greatly missed.”
As you may be aware, Malcolm has since clarified in the following statement that he did not leave for personal reasons:
“I am very saddened to have ended my ‘Sunday Night at 10′ programmes after 14 years. I did not want to leave but unfortunately Radio 2 was not able to offer me a satisfactory new contract, which left me with no alternative but to withdraw. The music, the musicians and the audiences have been my life and my pleasure since my first big band and swing programmes over 30 years ago. For the moment I shall take a rest and draw breath. But who knows? Sometimes when one door closes, another one opens….!”
I did post that statement on the Radio 2 Message Board, but first it was hidden, then removed, which indicates a desire to conceal the truth. I’m writing therefore to put on record my utter disgust at the treatment Malcolm has received from the BBC management. Not content with engineering his departure, they’ve chosen to add insult to injury by seeking to use his personal circumstances as camouflage, which I find quite despicable. As you know well, it’s the exact opposite of the truth.
Bob McDowell may have achieved his objective, but at great cost to the BBC’s reputation.
Yours faithfully
Barry McCanna
Please feel free to post this elsewhere if you wish to do so.
Just been to Wales for a week and couldn’t get Sunday night radio. Have just noticed that Clare Teal is on to-night. No disrespect to miss Teal but when she was on earlier in the year it was great to get Malcolm back! I am listening to last weeks show and then I’ll listen to David Jacobs hour.These are two shows I have listened to for years. I’m afraid I wont be listening in the future. Its the same with Tv the producers think there are only young people who watch and listen. It’s a sad state of affairs especially seeing we have to pay such an outrageous licence fee.
I am so sorry to hear of the demise of Malcolm Laycock’s show. As a 62 year old, I came to this genre rather late as a result of tuning in accidently to Malcolm’s show some years ago. What a gem of a presenter irrespective of the music and what a loss to the airways. When I think of the many thousands of older people, far older than me, who must be so sad to have lost this entertainment and link to past joys and memories, I feel hugely dissapointed by the BBC. Sadly I’m not at all suprised with the way the matter has been and continues to be dealt with by the BBC. Such is the utter contempt with which they hold thier patrons; anattitude which is mirrored so much in British public life these days.
A number of the posts to this thread have indicated that the loss of Malcolm Laycock’s programme (in its original form) and others of its type is a disservice to older listeners. That is true, but by no means are only older people deprived. There are large numbers of younger people who enjoy dance band, swing, light, theatrical and similar genres of music. I was at the Albert Hall in London last Saturday for the John Wilson Orchestra Promenade Concert. Of the 5,000 or so in the audience I would say that most were well under 60, and huge numbers appeared to be in their 20s and 30s. I had a seat in a box, and I would say the oldest person there, apart from me, was in his mid 40s. Several looked to be still in their 20s.
The audience went wild with enjoyment. There is clearly a demand for theatrical/swing music amongst people of all ages, even though it is so difficult to discover and to access. I think the BBC has a moral responsibility to expose entertainment music like this to a much wider section of the community. They did well on Saturday with the live TV and radio broadcast of this event. Maybe it can be a turning-point.
The departure of Malcolm Laycock has left me feeling that I’ve just lost one of my best (radio) friends. There is little enough of value on Radio 2 these days, and now there is one less presenter worth listening to. Clare Teal may be able to sing, but she has none of the qualities I look for in a radio presenter. Her opening comments about Malcolm “we’ll miss you to bits…” just adds insult to injury. My sense of gloom was only lifted by listening to the Alan Dell’s Dance Band Days programme of July 1979 - thank you SO MUCH Radio Café!
This has appeared in today’s Daily Telegraph:
Malcolm Laycock: radio review
Gillian Reynolds on the sudden and mysterious exit of a Radio 2 stalwart.
Published: 6:21PM BST 03 Aug 2009
Bidding farewell: former Radio 2 presenter Malcolm Laycock
A small earthquake rattled the teacups at Radio 2 last week. Malcolm Laycock, who, for 14 years, has presented a late night Sunday show of dance band music (that’s dance music of the 1930s and 40s, by the way, not the thumpy bumpy dance music of the 1990s), unexpectedly said the programme would be his last and, with feeling, bade farewell to his devoted listeners.
Radio 2 was caught on the hop. They knew he was going on holiday for four weeks. Clare Teal, the jazz singer who presents Radio 2’s Big Band Special, was already booked as his replacement. They hadn’t reckoned on Laycock saying goodbye forever. Bob Shennan, Radio 2’s Controller, issued a statement saying they were sad that Malcolm had chosen to leave Radio 2. He also let it be known he’d tried to persuade Laycock to return and, having been unsuccessful, would now review the whole situation.
Yet all week listeners got in touch to say they’re worried. Laycock’s departure seemed to signal another battle lost. They’d raised a fuss when the specific slot on his show for British dance bands was discontinued. Assurances from Radio 2 that this wouldn’t mean less of such music aroused, rather than dispelled, suspicion. Letters of complaint had received formulaic replies, followed by notification that the matter was now closed.
One such correspondent intends referring Radio 2’s music policy to the BBC Trust. Having heard the Chairman of the Trust, Sir Michael Lyons, on Radio 4’s Feedback on Friday, I wish my reader the best of luck. Sir Michael’s proven talents in local government did not, on this airing, prove sufficient to give credible answers to obvious questions about how much Jonathan Ross is paid.
If Radio 2’s review of music policy for older listeners turns out to signal the axe for Russell Davies and David Jacobs, Laycock’s fellow Sunday night presenters, then I predict ructions on a scale to shiver the entire Board’s timbers. Meanwhile, Clare Teal opened Sunday’s show with a personal “big thank-you” to Laycock “for 14 years of wonderful shows.” She sounded genuine, too. We should all look forward to Shennan’s next appearance on Feedback.
__._,_.___
Shennan must go. Malcolm Laycock has made far too valuable a contribution to the worlds of big band and dance band music to be allowed to leave. Dance bands should return. The BBC continually panders to the new, the young, the tasteless, and musically illiterate.
Richard Baker, I share your view of the need to keep Malcolm, but you’re aiming at the wrong target. It was Bob McDowell who axed British dance bands. Bob Shennan was appointed subsequently, and found himself in a situation that was not of his making.
It is strange how more facts come out with each day that passes: the Telegraph articles revealed a new fact: a claim that Malcolm expected a pay rise. Given the previous changes which we know were imposed on Malcolm, I can’t believe that was the only issue, or even the deciding one. My instinct is that Barry is right about Shennan and McDowell. It is telling that (according to the Telegraph) Shennan went to see Malcolm before he recorded his last show to try to persuade him to stay. That is in marked contrast to James Moir who let it be known that he did the hiring whilst his no.2 Lesley Douglas did the firing. Between the two of them, they wrecked most of Radio 2 anyway but, if Telegraph is correct, it would appear that Shennan at least has the decency to meet his presenters face-to-face when there is a problem. There is no doubt, however, that McDowell has no place on Radio 2.
Can I please add my voice to the sentiments expressed here. I can’t speak as knowledgeably as most of the contributors here about Malcolm Laycock’s programme because I’m not such a long-standing listener, but I’ve very much enjoyed it for the last few years and am very sorry to see him go. He was one of a handful of presenters on any radio station who I could bear to listen to - he was knowledgeable and articulate, and most of all, he didn’t talk down to his audience in the way that so many presenters do.
I agree with others who have said it’s not just the older generation who like listening to his sort of music. I’m not of the generation who remembers this type of music “first time round”, but through older relatives I’ve got to know the music of the 30s and 40s and I’m now a keen enthusiast.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Malcolm Laycock had asked for an increase in salary. Equally I wouldn’t be surprised if the BBC had kept his salary to the minimum that they could legally get away with without falling foul of the constructive dismissal legislation, in the hope that he would “take his bat home”. I don’t suppose anyone except the parties involved will ever know the full truth about this aspect.
I hope Malcolm Laycock will surface somewhere and he’ll have a loyal band to follow him. Radio 2’s loss. No offence to Miss Teal, but she can’t replace Malcolm Laycock - no-one can.
You’ll find a lot more on the same subject on the Radio 2 message board, here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F14126215?thread=6788788&skip=0&show=20
Annabel - thanks a lot for your contribution, so many people are saying exactly the same thing.
Yes, we will probably never know the real reasons why this decision happened but all I can add is that when we met Malcolm a few years ago, his view was very much “enjoy it while it lasts”. He clearly saw this day coming.
Malcolm even gave us some advice of how to “complain” to the BBC. Never criticise, always praise - e.g. adopt the approach: “we really enjoy David Jacobs show and should like to hear more of this wonderful type of music”, rather than: “why have you farmed off the greatest living broadcaster and all these musical gems to the worst slot on the radio schedule?”.
But it has all gone way beyond this. At the time we spoke with Malcolm, Roy Oakshot was still the producer and we corresponded with Roy for a while, and he too seemed to be resigned to the fact that the tide had turned and there was little hope left for “our kind of music”. Note the change in the music policy on Desmond Carrington’s show, Roy’s hand being forced on this. Desmond was of course relegated from Sunday. Sunday, which used to be such a special day on Radio 2.
It has much less to do with generation, and more to do with perception. I’m in my thirties but there is indeed a perception among BBC management that dance band music is for “older listeners”. What a load of nonsense. Is classical music exclusively for older listeners?
However, I do have many friends who are in their 70s and 80s who love the dance band era, and are simply not able to access the online message boards which the BBC seems to use as a barometer for listener preference.
Many of my friends also do not have the ability to “listen again” or access shows on the internet, such as the wonderful broadcasts being produced by Angel Radio. (So very well done, Tony Smith and team). Their views are not being represented at all, apart from via those of us who frequent message boards such as this.
The perception at the BBC is that younger listeners will relate to presenters like Clare Teal over the likes of Sheila Tracy and Maclolm Laycock. This is also completely wrong. (And I wonder what salary Clare gets compared to the one Malcolm was on?). I, too, mean no offence to Ms Teal, but she comes nowhere near Malcolm in terms of sincerity, warmth and understanding of the music and the listeners. She does not have the broadcasting experienced which means she sounds scripted and a little unnatural. But I don’t blame her for this, this is not her fault, it is simply the result of a very poor decision to replace Malcolm Laycock, his complete excellence only serving to highlight the young pretender’s flaws. It’s a bit like deciding to replace Alex Fergusson with Tony Adams.
It’s a shame the BBC no longer looks to local or internet radio for someone who would more readily fit the bill. Years ago, I remember when a little known Ken Bruce was promoted from the late night Saturday slot to replace Terry Wogan on the breakfast show. The same happened with Ray Moore, who was the late night weekend man for many years. But nowadays, the presenters must all come from the vast pool of media personalities who think that they can all have a go at radio, assuming it is a simple transition from appearing in Hello magazine to presenting a radio show. Otherwise, they all comprise former Radio 1 Djs.
This means there is no route for today’s Ray Moores or Ken Bruces, let alone Malcolm Laycocks or Alan Dells.
The same applies to Aled Jones. Nice enough bloke, well spoken, good singer in his day I guess, but completely wrong for Friday Night Is Music Night. And he sweeps up all the decent jobs on Radio 2 these days while the likes of Colin Berry and Bill Rennels are farmed off to local radio.
It is all a lost cause.
My choice for Sunday Night At Ten would of course be to keep Malcolm. If he must be replaced for whatever reason, then I would have looked for someone like Ian Horner from Angel Radio, a truly fine broadcaster and the sort of individual who is worthy of an intelligent and loyal audience.
It is encouraging that the superb Gillian Reynolds has picked up on this. What we really need is for this issue to be discussed on BBC radio 4 or 5. In the meantime, the national media, and your messages on places such as this, is the best way to go if we want to try and change anything. Letters to the BBC individuals themselves seem to lead to a lot of frustration and disappointment, in my experience.
Keep up the good work everyone. And thanks for your continued support for the Campaign For Real Music.
Paul
>>>Many of my friends also do not have the ability to “listen again” or access shows on the internet
Indeed, as Paul says there seems to be a perception at the BBC (as there is also at the telephone companies, local councils, electricity suppliers, etc.) that everyone has access to advanced computing facilities (and knows how to operate them). Internet radio is fine IF you want to listen to it where your computer happens to be. OK, some may have a laptop, wireless connection to broadband, etc. but one of the winning concepts of f.m. radio to me is its availability. F.M. radio technology is cheap and robust (both physically and electronically). For very little money, I can have an f.m. radio in every room in the house, as well as one in the garage, so I need never be without Radio 2 (a dwindling requirement, it must be said).
I don’t have a fancy computer (I think mine was Babbage’s prototype) and get by with a 56K modem for emails. Upgrading to broadband at an average of, say, £15 per month/£180 per year will only then allow me a speed of 500Kbits/sec, living where I do. Compared to the cost of listening to a conventional radio (i.e. little or nothing) £180/year plus computer hardware plus software and the regular upgrades of both makes the BBC’s licence fee seem something of a bargain!
Steve
Thank you for the link to the Radio 2 messageboard, Barry (post 134). I tried to register there but I never received the confirmatory email from the BBC. I’ve followed their instructions to re-register but still no email from them. I don’t have a “Junk email” box - everything comes into one box - so the email hasn’t gone astray. Sorry but it looks as though I won’t be able to let them know my regret at what the station has done.
Hi Annabel
It may be that you’re trying to register outside the message board’s working hours. I know I’ve tried to post a message there and been frustrated for that reason. Do keep trying and good luck.
I am very sad to hear that Malcolm Laycock has become the latest casulty of the bbc Radio 2 secret revamp to remove any DJ that are over a certain age, first they alter their programmes as they have with Malcolm, I think there is also a little confusion regarding the program history as I used to lister to the late Alan Dell’s Sunday Afternoon show sounds Easy and that was scrapped by the then controller Frances Line as I wrote and complained at the time about the changes to the schedule and I got a silly reply back saying most people liked the changes.
Malcolm was a regular sit in for Alan Dell for his Monday evening which as my memory serves me used to be half big band and the other swing bands and following Alan Dell Death Malcolm took over and was moved to the Sunday evening slot until last week when he was put in the retirement home for old Disc Jockeys like Sheila Tracey, Jimmy Young and replaced by another younger photo copy model, I wonder how long it will be before the likes of Desmond Carrington, Brian Mathew, Terry Wogan and Ken Bruce get their P45 or gold clocks from the bbc radio 2 which is just a reflection of the old radio 1.
I only listen to radio 2 on Sunday evening now for Melodies for you, Russell Davies and I used to listen to Malcolm’s programme before francis line changed it I used to listen to radio 2 all the time but to be blunt it is just like listening to radio 1 or local radio now. the quality has gone but the memory will be there for me as for Malcolms programme that has now joined the list of programmes I wont be listening either now as I did not like the music played on it and if other aggree with me the best thing to do is switch off and affect the listening numbers.
I wrote to Malcolm back in January and received a reply from Caroline Snooks e-mail account but written by Bob McDowall, Executive Producer Audio & Music Production, BBC Birmingham!!
I’m sure most of you received a similar response. The disappointing thing for me is that we are British Dance Band-less on the radio. I find the whole genre so uplifting and happy and warm and miss that weekly half-hour so much.
Hopefully Malcolm will be given a show elsewhere — BBC local radio, commercial, web radio, regular podcasts… as the subject of British Dance Bands is close to his heart and one of which he is very knowledgeable.
Radio 2 seems to be in the market of picking-up all the fallen Radio 1 DJs, or recently hot TV presenters and it won’t be long before Moyles, Wiley and McCall turn up there.
Mind you, I only listen to the specialist stuff like Malcolms… how could I listen to Wogan? After all, my Dad used to listen to it!!!
Tonight, I tried to enjoy Malcolm’s old slot with Clare Teal, but I find her voice and style really grates. I am also annoyed that the dance band music that was supposed to be put into the general mix of the programme seems to have been largely ditched in favour of vocals with big band backings. Whilst I like this music, there was a time when there were plenty of other outlets for this on R2. That it is included in the ‘Sunday Night at 10′ show, under a big band heading, is a reminder that there are now hardly any other programmes which would feature this kind of thing (probably only Desmond Carrington and David Jacobs). I am praying that Ms Teal’s occupation of the chair is only temporary and a decent presenter is appointed as a permanent successor to Malcolm.
I listened to Russell Davies last night, and out of curiosity stayed tuned in for Sunday Night At Ten, but not for long. I feel sorry for Clare Teal, because she’s been thrown in at the deep end. She has a hard act to follow, because Malcolm was/is so good at what he did. She may be a great singer, but her speaking voice fails to engage my attention, and I switched off after ten minutes.
Hi,
I wonder if anyone can help me, I missed Malcolm’s last programme because I went out of the room and my radio was turned off so I missed it does anyone know of anyway of still accessing it.
I tried to listen to the programme last night but like Doug Scott and Barry McCanna I managed only ten minutes because the programme just wasent the same.
I took a printout of the page from the telegraph site which is implying that there may be more changes on Radio 2 below is a piece from the article.
“If Radio 2’s review of music policy for older listeners turns out to signal the axe for Russell Davies and David Jacobs, Laycock’s fellow Sunday night presenters, then I predict ructions on a scale to shiver the entire Board’s timbers. Meanwhile, Clare Teal opened Sunday’s show with a personal “big thank-you” to Laycock “for 14 years of wonderful shows.” She sounded genuine, too. We should all look forward to Shennan’s next appearance on Feedback.
the link for anyone who wants to read the full article is http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturecritics/gillianreynolds/5967340/Malcolm-Laycock-radio-review.html.
Lets bring back good music and quality to the radio I am only 42 and I have been listening to this type of music since I was at school as my mum and late uncle loved it and so I got to love it too and it is a travisty to see it disapear like this.
Regards peter
Back around 1990 when Frances Line was controller, I remember that she tried to axe Alan Dell’s Sounds Easy. She’d already culled the BBC Radio Orchestra, sacked all the session singers, musicians and a number of the broadcasters, and her next career-defining moment was to tinker with what was by all counts a perfect Sunday line-up.
Although Frances tried her best to destroy much of what we loved about Radio 2, the strength of the listener back-lash was such that she quickly had to reverse this decision. Following Alan’s return to the 3pm slot (which he had made his own), I made sure I recorded every show as it was clear that the future for this kind of broadcast looked very bleak.
Time has been telling, and now the only remnants with which we are left are the fantastic David Jacobs, superb Russell Davies and a watered-down but still excellent Desmond Carrington.
Gillian talks about “ructions to shiver the Board’s timbers” if they get rid of the little that is left. But I think that this is a rare error of judgement on the part of Ms Reynolds. Since, despite our letters, complaints and many years’ worth of ructions, it seems to me that the Board could not care less about what we think.
Hi Peter,
I recorded Malcolm’s final programme (for sentimental / end of an era archive reasons really, as I don’t care for swing but loved his former danceband segment). I’m not sure how Radiocafe would feel about this, but if they had no objection I would be more than happy to send you a copy (for free) if there were some way for you to provide me with a forwarding address (I realise it’s unwise to give one’s address out on line).
Mike
Clare Teal’s blog in the Times may be of interest:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/festivals/article6796051.ece
I’ve posted a couple of comments. Feel free to add to them.
Barry, your responses to Clare Teal’s blog in ‘The Times’ are truly excellent. I was about to add my two pennyworth when I realised that mine would be a poor effort after yours. You argued the case beautifully.
By the way, can you tell me, please, when the three part series is to be broadcast? Like many others, I imagine, I haven’t been listening to Radio 2, and I’ve missed the announcement.
Peter.
Hi Peter
Many thanks for your kind words, but I’ve just revisited the Times webpage and they’ve both disappeared! That was after they had been approved by the moderator, so I’ve written to ask what’s going on.
The three-part series is being trailed as a sop to the growing army of malcontents who keep pestering the BBC. (Have they got nothing better to do with their time, and why can’t they be satisfied with what we choose to play for them?)
I suspect it’s still at the concept stage (Tristram speaking unto Tristram) awaiting input from various luminaries before they start thinking about who they can get to present it. Perhaps we should have a bit of fun conjuring up the most unlikely names we can think of. My money’s on Rolf Harris!
Hi Barry,
Thanks for your reply. I think Rolf Harris could be a strong contender, but how about Basil Brush? That’s if Bill and Ben aren’t available.
Peter.
The Mail on Sunday is carrying an article detailing why Malcolm left, which you’ll find here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206803/A-parting-blast-BBC-Radio-2-s-voice-big-band.html#comments
Thanks Barry.
I’m sure I read a number of comments in the Daily Mail article earlier this morning, and left one myself. Perhaps it is temporary but these comments - like the ones on the Times website - seem to have disappeared.
Conspiracy theories aside, any idea what is going on here?
Radiocafé,
There are currently 43 comments/responses on the Daily Mail article, to read them all you need to click the ‘View All’ button.
John W
Just received from the BBC2 message board:
Hello Mr McCanna
Your posting was removed because of the following line
” All far more part of our history, and all sadly verboten because of
the unilateral diktat imposed by producer Bob McDowall.
Mr McDowall has not imposed a ‘unlateral diktat’ - so your posting was
seen to be inaccurate and misleading.”
So I can’t post what I know to be true, but they can post what I know to be
false!
Cheers John - I think the comments were “down” when I last looked, they are now back up!
Paul
Indeed there are many, many upset people out there as the comments list increases on the Daily Mail article, which are well worth a view:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206803/A-parting-blast-BBC-Radio-2-s-voice-big-band.html#comments
This is the text of what I posted to the Radio 2 message board, which has
been removed, presumably because I referred to McDowall’s response, and
Malcolm’s statement, although I did no quote either.
“I agree wholeheartedly. This act of cultural philistinism by the BBC
producer concerned generated a great deal of anger, and a considerable
volume of complaints. Mr McDowall’s stock response was risible, and
deficient because it ignored the BBC’s set complaints procedure.
He did not advise of the next stage if dissatisfied, nor did he state that
the complaint had been logged. Those omissions suggest that the BBC
Executive were left unaware of the true scale of the listener reaction.
It’s apparent that Mr McDowall was determined to ride rough-shod over
Malcolm’s legitimate concerns in order to impose his decision. No wonder
Malcolm was unhappy, and no wonder he’d had enough. The wonder is that he
stuck it out as long as he did.
The BBC should sort out this mess, move McDowall and reinstate the British
dance bands and their expert presenter. The genre is part of its heritage,
and was central to one of its greatest successes, namely Dennis Potter’s
“Pennies From Heaven”.
Appreciation is not confined to those who heard the bands in their heyday,
it cuts across all age groups. The audience quoted was 360,000; I wonder
what it is now?”
The message to me said in part “Please be careful when you copy the text of
someone else’s message into your post. If their posting is subsequently
removed, your posting may also have been removed, as it contained a copy of
their failed text”. I’ve asked for clarification.
I have just been banned from posting on Radio 2 site, without warning nor explanation.
All I did was ask why messages had been removed.
Can they do this?
Where do I go from here.?
Any advice would be welcome.
Howard, I’m sorry to hear that. I think they’re trying to close the thread down. I posted a fairly strongly-worded message there and they wouldn’t pass it (I’m pre-moderated). So I toned it down, and it appeared. Then it was withdrawn for consideration, and rejected. Another edit, another rejection slip. I’m beginning to feel like a failed author. I don’t know what you can do other than rejoin using another name and account, if you have one.
This is my twice-0revised posting, which has been removed because (they say) it is defamatory! Any lawyers out there?
“When the BBC curtailed the playing of music by British dance bands it generated a great deal of anger, and a considerable volume of complaints, as evidenced by the fact that it was featured on “Feedback”. Mr McDowall’s stock response failed to address the issues which were raised, and his letter failed to advise of the next stage, as required by the BBC’s complaints procedure.
From what Malcolm has said since his shock departure it seems that Mr McDowall did not want to listen to his legitimate concerns. No wonder he was unhappy, and no surprise that he’s had enough. The wonder is that he stuck it out as long as he did.
The BBC should act without delay to sort out this mess, reinstate the music of the British dance bands, and its expert presenter. The genre is part of radio’s heritage, and led to the BBC having its own dance orchestra, led first by Jack Payne followed by Henry Hall. That plus outside transmissions from various West End venues did a great deal to popularise the Corporation.
In addition, the music was central to one of its greatest successes, namely Dennis Potter’s “Pennies From Heaven”. That series kindled enthusiasm in a new generation of listeners, which is one reason why appreciation is not confined to those who heard the bands in their heyday, it covers all age groups.”
So sorry Barry.
Cannot we take this beyond the BBC.
All you did was tell the truth.
Howard - we’d be inclined to post your experiences of being “moderated out” on the Daily Mail link above, or the Times one if it is working, or send them to Gillian Reynolds at the Telegraph. And keep us posted too.
Unfortunately, your experience is nothing we have not seen before, many times. Criticise the BBC at your peril!
We were in precisely the same position a few years ago as you are now, and didn’t know where to go. So we decided to start a forum of our own, and hope that this will help bring further awareness to this sorry state of affairs. It has certainly demonstrated that so many of us feel (and have been treated by the BBC) the same way.
We should perhaps note that we are not anti-BBC at all. Quite the contrary, we are simply keen to see it preserve some of the things that made it such a fantastic service.
And if anyone from the BBC should happen to drop in here, you are welcome to comment without fear of us moderating your views. If so, perhaps you can correct our conclusion, which seems patently clear, that this is simply a case of certain BBC “management personalities” wanting to save face.
Too many of our comments have clearly hit a raw nerve. But, BBC management, you forget that ultimately we pay your wages, and you are doing yourselves no favours by alienating so many of your loyal listeners.
…and Barry - keep up the good work!
Barry,
Can you pass on a message on 2 site to John Petters that I have been banned so cant answer his question?
It wasn’t me anyway re Michael Parkinson.
I have posted a comment on the BBC board with a link to this discussion.
Let’s see if that goes down the moderation plughole!
I wonder if communication will improve when Shennan comes back from his holiday, if the message board hasn’t been shut down by then.
Hello, hello. I posted a comment on the Times site with the Clare Teal story and it has been removed. They have left 1 comment in place - why?
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/festivals/article6796051.ece
Have just posted this. Seems our comments are not welcome.
>
Oops, typing error. My Times message referred to in 165 was;
“It’s so important that the BBC continues to cover this kind of music. It’s part of our history — it’s folk music, when all said and done, just different folk. ”
What a shame, then, that there is no longer any British dance band music on what used to be Malcolm Laycock’s show. It is part of our history and the BBC’s and is greatly missed by many listeners.
There is no-one now on Radio 2 who is able to introduce this music, which inspired Dennis Potter and many others, to new listeners.
Hi Howard
It’s OK it was I who told you and John Petters about the Parky article and I’ve made contact with JP to clarify.
Follow-up to my last message:
There is a very good article by Parky article on Page 18 of next week’s Radio Times. I won’t quote directly in case I am in breach of copyright rules but it is mainly about the MGM Prom, John Wilson, Grappelli/Menuhin and the fact that the Great American Songbook is ignored by tv and radio, especially Radio 2 who ought to know better. He even suggests John Wilson as head of music at Radio 2. What a wonderful idea!
I would think Parky would have great sympathy with all our current worries about Radio 2.
There is someone called Mike over at digital spy who, in essence, say we are all wrong and the BBC is right.
Do you think he works for the BBC?
I have looked at the discussion on digital spy, and I do think there’s a danger of over-stating our case. Remember, several of us got to the BBC Trust, which body would not hear the complaint because it related to “editorial and creative content” which is the responsibility of the BBC Executive. My appeal against that decision also failed. So whether we like it or not (and I for one don’t) that’s the answer. There’s no point expending any more energy in pursuing it with the Trust, although you had the opportunity to respond to their public consultation about Radio 2, which has just concluded. So Mike does have a point.
Does that mean we all should give up and accept what the BBC gives us?
Can I stop paying my licence fee if I don’t like it?
I should have made myself clearer. What I meant was don’t expend your energy on the Trust, concentrate on the BBC Executive. If what the BBC gives us is defined as “editorial and creative content” then the Trust will not intervene, although I hope they bear in mind the furore that’s been created now that they are reviewing Radio 2’s Service Level Agreement.
Any idea when the results of their consultation will be published? (Actually, just checked and the site indicates 2010 so best not hold my breath…). I spent ages filling it in, even though I suspect my views will simply go in the large BBC Executive dustbin, along with all our letters of complaint over the past few years.
I never heard Alan Dell’s Dance Band Days when it was broadcast. Listening to the stream at the top of this page, it’s brilliant! I see Alan Dell’s widow donated his archive to the British Sound Library in 1999 - I wonder if it contained recordings of all (or any of) his Radio 2 programmes? It would be lovely to hear some more. I suppose the BBC holds the copyright, though probably not the programmes themselves.
There was a programme on BBC Radio Nottingham in the 1980s called “The Golden Years” presented by Ron Stevens. I was an avid listener (at ten years old!). I have some appalling quality tapes of that programme, though thankfully its easier to find lively British Dance Band music on CD now than it seemed back then.
I think the BBC is missing a trick in failing to provide for older tastes (he says, at 34!). I’m happy (actually, I prefer) to grab things off iPlayer, so I don’t mind when or where it’s broadcast - but for the technophobes out there, maybe Aunty could grab some Medium Wave frequencies if, as planned, all MW broadcasting moves to FM/DAB around 2015? Mind you - it would be a shame to wait that long.
There are lots of minority interests (and being honest, 80 year old pop music is a minority interest!) that maybe can’t stay in peak time on a primary national station - but don’t deserve to be dropped completely, especially at a time when the BBC is producing more hours of radio than ever before!
Read around the net, and you’ll find similar comments about Jazz and Folk on BBC radio. Aunty cannot and should not move to “pop only” on four national radio networks, and shouldn’t reduce the “core classical” on Radio 3 either.
Cheers,
David.
Barry McCanna said
“I should have made myself clearer. What I meant was don’t expend your energy on the Trust, concentrate on the BBC Executive. If what the BBC gives us is defined as “editorial and creative content” then the Trust will not intervene, although I hope they bear in mind the furore that’s been created now that they are reviewing Radio 2’s Service Level Agreement.”
I agree, Barry that a sustained complaint to the BBC Executive should be made. I have complained to Bob Shennan only to have my e-mail diverted to BBC Complaints, followed by the very unsatisfactory reply published here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F14126215?thread=6839844
The Trust however have a duty to force the Executive to comply if they breach the Licence, so they should not be let off the hook.
If the Trust refuses to uphold its statutory duty, then it must be the responsibility of the Minister to order them to do so. I don’t believe they can argue that R2 is in compliance with the licence for the reasons laid out in my complaint to Sir Michael Lyons, currently on the R2 Message boad, same thread.
Howard and John, everything you say is true and in an ideal world would be put to rights. I first complained last November; it took eight months to exhaust the process and the Trust refused to act, even though it was clear that the BBC was in breach of the Service Level Agreement. The only satisfaction I obtained was an apology for the way in which my complaint had been handled (see messages 69 and 70).
Hi Barry,
The Trust may be found to have acted wrongly in your case. I’ll read the other messages tomorrow.
Strange that neither John Wright nor I am being bounced. I’m still being modded - but the fact they allowed publication of my letter is a positive move.
I’m getting a number of e-mails from my jazz mailing list asking what they can do to help. I’ll refer them here rather than starting another page on my own website. I’ll put a link to this site.
Hi Barry,”I obtained was an apology for the way in which my complaint had been handled (see messages 69 and 70).”.
Got around to reading those letters. Was that the end? What did your MP say?
John - thanks; we’ve added a link back to Traditional Jazz on our homepage. If you have any articles you would like us to include here, be it dance band related or otherwise, please let us know.
In the meantime, we will be interested to hear from any further disgruntled dance band fans.
I just read the rather sorry thread on the Digital Spy website (http://digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1108015&page=5). I have to say I find a number of the comments posted distasteful and disrepsectful. These are precisely the sort of people, with the kind of agressive attitudes, that encouraged us to create this forum where those of us here show each other a lot more respect. In fact, we’ve only had to remove one comment in the two years this forum has been up and running.
I don’t blame the forum at all, they have so many comments that they can’t keep a close eye on all of them and at least they don’t moderate every small criticism of the BBC out like the BBC’s own fora do.
Regards Radio 2: what is useful about the Digital Spy thread and BBC message boards is that they demonstrate clearly how the key issue, the real issue, always gets missed or fudged along the way. The more agressive contributors’ views always tend to take precedence over the valid and honest complaints of others. Why?
Yes, there are many out there who perhaps do not like dance bands or the “golden age” of popular song. Speaking personally, I don’t particularly like folk music and pan pipes give me an allergic reaction. But the point is this: folk music and even pan pipes deserve a place on the BBC. As does country, reggae, lovers rock, soul, light, heavy metal, dance bands and all sorts of types of music.
Our complaint is not just that we do not have fair proportion of the music spectrum, we don’t have any! And it’s even more unfair that we have had so much taken away. That doesn’t seem fair or right. It has nothing to do with age, either.
Plus so many of us do not want a re-hashed Radio 1 or every popular TV presenter of the day turning up on Radio 2 (cue Alan Carr, Lisa Tarbuck and how soon before flavour-of-the-month Michael McIntyre gets his own show too?). Some people do like all of this and that’s fair enough, and presently they are very - rather, completely - well catered for.
We are not catered for at all.
I would post this very same comment over at Digital Spy but I truly don’t think it is worth doing so only to face the inevitable disrespectful and offensive comments that are likely to come back in response. The whole situation regarding the BBC is upsetting enough, and last thing I need is some moron preaching BBC management propoganda in an unnecessarily rude (and possibly defamatory) manner.
I’d rather press on here, with our positive attempts to try and garner support for our cause and get the BBC execs - eventually - to take note of our rather humble request.
Keep up the good work for the cause, everyone, and do keep posting your comments and sending like-minded folk over here too.
Incidentally, if anyone has an article/thread of their own they would like to start, please let us know.
Thanks
Paul @ Radiocafe
Having posted on there myself I couldn’t agree more. It’s quite instructive that they consistently fail to answer the point, but when challenged seem unable to substantiate what they are saying. The old expresssion used to be barrack room lawyers.
Dear John
My apologies for not responding sooner to your question at message 178, but those nice folk over at digital spy have been occupying my attention!
I think the easiest way for me to reply is to set out my letter dated 13th August to the Trust which should be self-explanatory:
“Sunday Night At Ten
Many thanks for your letter dated 3rd August (which I received yesterday) confirming that my complaint about the BBC’s failure to comply with its own procedure, for which I’d earlier received an apology, had formed part of the briefing to the Trust’s Vice-Chairman, prior to the Panel’s consideration of my appeal.
I appreciate that lessons have been learned, but I’m concerned that they cannot be applied retrospectively. Many listeners wrote direct to the programme’s producer, Mr McDowell, to complain about his decision. They received a stock response, which not only omitted to outline the next stage if they remained dissatisfied, but also failed to say that their concerns had been entered on the audience log circulated within the BBC. Replies from BBC Information, which reiterated the McDowall formula and omitted reference to the next stage, nevertheless carried an assurance that the complaint had been logged. As to the Trust’s intervention in my own case, for which I’m grateful, how many other overseas listeners had their legitimate complaints rebuffed?
The problem is that these errors and omissions not only impeded the flow of complaints to the next stage, they also undermined the integrity of the BBC’s complaints procedure. That is to say, many of the complaints dealt with by Mr McDowall went no further, because the listeners concerned were left unaware of their right to proceed to the next stage. If that felony was compounded because they were not logged, then the picture presented to the BBC Executive would have understated the true position by a significant factor.
I had decided to wait until my appeal had been determined before proceeding further. I accept of course that there is no further action to be taken by the BBC Trust, although I do think it should have more than an academic interest. That is because the BBC Complaints home page features the Chairman next to the assurance “Your complaint is important to us”.
I had hoped to receive a response direct from Mr McDowall, through our mutual membership of an internet forum, but he has declined to comment. Therefore I am copying this letter to Bob Shennan, in the hope that he will establish the extent to which the general omission of essential information had the effect of actively deterring complaints, thereby distorting the statistics, and whether anything can be done at this late stage to rectify matters.
Yours sincerely”
Hi Barry,
Not a satisfactory state of affairs.
I’ve been reading a lot of the BBC paperwork. Dealing with comments on the other forum is a distraction really and I’m not going to waste much more time with it, but the two who have been most aggressive seem not to understand English and one sailed very close to the libel laws!
I’ve, as yet, had no reply from the Trust or from Mr Carnie. In fact I’ve not heard back from BBC Complaints either following my letter in response to the pathetic ‘fob off’ letter they sent.
The legal framework of the whole setup is interesting. I had a similar problem years ago with the Musicians Union, whose executive committee at the time were not following the Rules which were the constitution of the Union.
Along with several other malcontents, I took them to the Trades Union Certification Officer, who found in our favour and things had to change.
It seems to me that there are certain parallels with the BBC. No matter how hard the DS bods argue about the law, the BBC has to operate within the Rules laid down in the Charter and Agreement.
This is why I have complained directly to Trust about the Trust failing to force the Executive to comply with its Licence.
The Trust will be seen to be in a very difficult position if they say it is a matter of editorial content, when they have defined precisely what that editorial content must be.
They have a clear duty to enforce the terms of the Licence - which means what it says.
So if they fail to play music for ALL over 35s in BOTH mainstream and Specialist shows, I can’t see how the Trust can fail to act, without bringing itself into disrepute.
The Trust could, of course, modify the Service Licence, but that is not a quick fix.
I think the suggestion from one of the DS threads this afternoon is probably the most equitable solution. I recall John Wright suggesting a ‘light’ music programme during the day. If they broke the day up into different themes, like it used to be, then you wouldn’t have the absurd situation of Vera Lynn being played alongside the Sex Pistols.
From a personal point of view, I can’t see why R1 couldn’t carry all the pop / rock music, but I think that would be very hard to justify on the grounds that a lot of 60 year olds came up during the beat boom.
Interesting times.
>>From a personal point of view, I can’t see why R1 couldn’t carry all the pop / >>rock music, but I think that would be very hard to justify on the grounds that >>a lot of 60 year olds came up during the beat boom.
I suppose it comes down to whether R2 is aimed at a music genre or at an age range. Taken to its logical conclusion, if R2’s target audience is to be those of 60-ish, then in not too many years we are set to enjoy a profusion of punk rock on “our” station! As the edges have become IMHO rather too blurred, surely it’s time for a “system reset” and a re-classification of the four most popular stations as ‘Rock & Pop’, Light & Jazz, Classical and Chat/Current Affairs - oh! - sounds familiar - status quo as of about twenty years ago!
Radio 2 isn’t all bad (yet) but has changed over the last few years from being a station I actively liked to listen to into the least objectionable of what’s on offer. Possibly it’s all part of the same ‘dumbing down’ that’s afflicted television of late. Do they think we need to have everything on the news explained to us as if we’re five year olds? “Today the prime minister (he’s the man you didn’t vote for but who runs the country anyway)……. etc.”
Yours cynically,
Steve
Steve R
“…Possibly it’s all part of the same ‘dumbing down’ that’s afflicted television of late…”
That’s afflicted everything of late, it seems to me!
It’s way off-topic but - I feel dumbing down is inevitable if you decide to pander to some imaginary selfish youngster who has to have life made simpler for them all the time.
What does it get us? Food and drink with “no bits” - God forbid anything natural or unprocessed should sneak through! - computer games that “reward” every few minutes, leaving kids with the mental focus of a labrador puppy.
Enough exam retakes to guarantee that you won’t fail (plus being told *exactly* what to revise before the exams, why should they have to learn the whole syllabus like we did!!); no music on Radio 2 that you haven’t already heard ad nauseam on Radio 1; nothing that demands any sort of effort, whether it be chewing or thinking. If we go on like this it will be Coldplay, watered-down R’n'B and third-rate singer-songwriters for everybody. Radio 2, you are taking away the menu and handing out musical pap. With No Bits.
Well said Steve R
Are people so devoid of inspiration and sense that they cant see this.
You have just summed up a lot of the problems faced with society these days. And this spills over into radio. I too am fed up with presenters/Disc Jocs shouting at me all the time. Converse with me but do not make me feel like a pratt.
I wonder how many of these called tunes topday will last as long as the popular music we love and that has served us and the country well all these years in good times and bad.
Has the BBC stopped allowing us to post on the Malcolm Laycock message board?
There is no “Reply to this message” button any more.
Also noticed; Malcolm always introduced the show as “the big bands and the dance bands”. Then it started to be referred to as “the best of the big bands and the swing bands” - then it was “Clare Teal presents the best in swinging big band sounds” - and now, on the page that still bears Malcolm’s name and photo, it’s “The best in big band sounds.”
So don’t expect the show to contain any more swing, folks, because that word has gone.
Hey, Bob - tell ‘em that one about how dance bands and swing bands will still feature on the show! It’s the way he tells ‘em.
I’ve created an online petition, which you’ll find here:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/britishdancebandsonradio2/index.html
the purpose of which is self-explanatory. As well as signing it (assuming you agree) please also bring it to the attention of any associated groups of which you’re a member, and any like-minded friends and acquaintances.
Hi Barry,
Am I missing something? Tried to do that but it asked for money.
I think you may be going in via a portal which I’ve navigated already. The donation, which helps maintain the site, is discretionary. My recollection is that you just need to press Continue.
Good work, Barry. Two signatures duly added, and I’m sure I’ll find more.
Regards, Peter.
Yes, another signature from me. Thanks Barry.
I came across this admirable site whilst googling for references to Malcolm Laycock. Ever since the announcement of his intended departure, and after reading Gillian Reynolds comments in the press, I have looked for some way to express my deep disappointment that the BBC had allowed Malcolm to depart. However, having read the many postings on the subject I see that numerous contributors have stated the case much more ably and succinctly than I could hope to do.
It has been my habit for many years to record programmes such as Malcolm’s, together with David Jacobs and Russell Davies, and listen at times other than during the actual broadcast. Initially I used cassette tape and latterly Minidisc.
I have been listening to music from the swing era since even before the days of “Sweet & Swing”, Alan Dell’s “Big Band Sound” and “Date with a Disc”. Reading the comments by some of your contributors, it may interest them to know that I have many, many recordings on cassette tape of Alan Dell’s “Big Band Sound” and “Sounds Easy” dating from 1974. Also, many of the Benny Green programmes.
Malcolm Laycock seemed to me to be the last link with the professional presenters who knew their subject inside out, thoroughly researched their programmes and presented them in a wholly appealing manner. I have nothing but admiration for Clare Teal’s singing, but a radio presenter she ain’t! I find the modulation and cadences of her voice make for difficult listening and her constant
mispronunciation of names irritating.
If it is true that the reason for Malcolm’s departure was failure to agree a suitable contract, is it not possible, even at this late stage, to get all parties to reconsider given the enormous amount disappointment that has been engendered?
We’ve signed it too, and amended our original entry to add a link to the petition.
Well done Barry for doing this!
An excellent letter in yesterday’s ‘Daily Mail’ from the Editor of ‘In Tune’ magazine:
“The current success of the new Vera Lynn CD should send a message to the controller of Radio 2 that his policy of ignoring pre-rock popular music is wrong.
The recent axing of Malcolm Laycock’s Big Band show and the hostile response from the public is the latest example of the relentless efforts of the bosses of Radio 2 to purge the music of the pre-rock era from the airwaves as though they never existed.
This despite most of the audience having been brought up with this music and preferring it to the wall-to-wall pop they must now endure.
The few remaining programmes that cater for this audience have been shunted to graveyard slots on Sunday, which was Laycock’s fate.
Radio 2’s self-confessed mandate is to appeal to the over-35s, but it seems to think this means catering exclusively for the lower end of the age range. There is quite literally nothing played during the day that meets the needs of the disenfranchised majority of Radio 2 listeners.
As the publisher of a music magazine, now in its 23rd year, devoted to popular music of the pre-rock era, my postbag is always full of complaints about the daytime content of Radio 2.
Complaints to the station are dismissed with standard letters that serve only to demonstrate the fatuous complacency of the management, who just do not listen”.
Gerry Stonestreet, Eastbourne, Sussex.
(Picked up from the British dance bands Yahoo group)
Radio Two’s march of questionable progress continues. Terry Wogan was never my favourite presenter but he built up a massive following, and now he’s to be replaced with Chris Evans. Bob Shennan was on BBC TV News tonight with an explanation just as meaningless as the one he offered for the axing of the dance bands.
Will these people never learn?
I think Wogan’s had enough, just as Malcolm did. The management is now shuffling the seats in the lifeboat.
I agree, Barry, Wogan has made the choice to leave.
Not so much shuffling the seats in the lifeboat, more like re-arranging the deckchairs on the ‘Titanic’ methinks.
I see that Vera Lynn is high in the charts at 92…not her position, that’s her age!
I went to see the “We’ll Meet Again” show at the Bridgwater Hall on Sunday. The place was packed to the rafters. Says it all really.
Incidentally we have started a separate thread on the selection of Evans to replace Wogan. If anyone wishes to contribute, we very much welcome your views on this.
Did anyone else watch the programme on BBC4 last night about Harris Tweed? It was rather instructive. A hard-headed Yorkshire businessman bought up the mill and cut down the number of colours available to the weavers from eight thousand to four. Just four, that is, not four thousand!
He then churned out a vast number of standardised jackets, which failed to sell. The Americans, who loved the range of materials previously available, have begun a counter-offensive. I wondered if anyone at Radio 2 had watched, and drawn the obvious conclusion, but I doubt it.
Just heard it confirmed on Radio 5 news, Vera Lynn’s album is No 1.
Yet no British radio station features sher music regularly.
Shouldn’t this tell the BBC Radio 2 executive producers something?
Not just ‘nonagenarian oldies’ buying this CD for sure.
John W
Damn Cheek!!! Angel Radio on 101.1 FM plays Vera Lynn every single day and has done since 2002.
Since pursuing my complaint with the BBC, I am suddenly getting promotional mailings from the Radio Times. What a ruddy nerve!! How dare they harvest addresses, without asking permission, from people who write in to complain? Has anybody else had this happen?
Sorry Tony, I should have said NATIONAL Radio station.
John
I have signed the petition (twice by mistake!) - thank you Barry.
I sent the following email to Bob McDowall about the Sunday night programme:
“Please can you explain why you are almost completely ignoring our great
UK big bands? And what happened to your promise that the shows would include some tracks by British Dance Bands which are such an important part of our history and that of the BBC? They are of great interest and enjoyment to listeners of all ages, not just the “oldies”.
What terrific musicianship has been consigned to the waste bin. Shame on
you, BBC!”
He emailed to say that on Sunday 20th Sept the programme will have music from Ambrose, Jack Hylton, Ted Heath, Jack Parnell and Kenny Baker’s Dozen.
I replied:
“Thank you in anticipation of the programme next Sunday. I hope that the listeners you have lost will be aware of it and can look forward to a return to the type of music on which the great Malcolm Laycock was such an expert. How he is missed!”
Do you think Radio 2 is getting the message at last??
PS: The magazine of Big Band Buddies has a long article about Malcolm and also said that, sadly, his wife died in August after a long illness. Poor man.
Kenny Baker’s Dozen?
Yes, Kenny Baker’s Dozen. Not to your taste perhaps?? It must be a step in the right direction.
How sad to learn about Malcolm’s wife. Thanks for letting us know, Eileen, and for all your efforts with the BBC. Keep up the good work!
Greetings!
I’m sending this e-mail to those who have expressed interest in the Radio 2 saga.
I was interviewed by Radio 4 yesterday for Friday’s ‘Feedback’. I only got about 2 minutes, which is likely to be edited.
I’ve also has a pathetic reply from the Trust which I have answered. It came from the correspondence manager. She had not read my complait which was a complaint about the Trust failing to police its own Service Licence.
I also had a waffling reply from Bob Shennan to my original complaint.
It seems I’m no longer being moderated on the R2 Message Boards.
Update next week, as I’m off on tour up north.
Best wishes
John
Who is it who started the series of dance band show mp3 downloads late last year? I’m sure you post here! I’ve downloaded lots of them, but now lost the web page - can anyone provide a link please?
TIA,
David.
David,
Yes, soon after Malcolm Laycock lost his dance band half hour I began producing my own little programmes for dance band fans, using my own 78’s.
I am still producing a weekly ‘dance band show’, now up to #39 and all are still downloadable at
http://www.r2ok.co.uk/dancebandshow.htm
Hope you enjoy.
John Wright
Thanks John - yes, it was you! Thanks for replying.
(You should put your website address in the ID3 tags of the mp3s - I’d have known where I had got them from then! At the moment the ID3 tags are blank, apart from the Genre tag, which says “Drum and Bass”!!!)
I love the selection you include. Some really great tracks, and not many “obvious” ones - I’m hearing some great music for the first time.
I have mixed feelings about Algorithmix Sound Rescue 3.0 restoration. It’s not entirely benign to the original signal, nor 100% effective in removing the noise. I guess CEDAR is out of your budget?
Assuming this to be the case, I don’t mind the original crackles that much.
Regards,
David.
Hi David, yes I often forget to put descriptive data in the mp3 tags, thanks for reminder. Don’t know why the program defaults to a Drum And Bass genre label :o)))
But if you had Googled one of the rare tracks you would soon have found my playlist page !
I’d say the Sound Rescue 3.0 does take out 90% of the surface noise without much affecting the music, which I think is good enough for this low-audience ‘radio show’. And yes it doesn’t take out all the clicks, like say from a hairline crack, so I often have to erase such clicks one at a time using Audacity.
Glad you like the music selection, I do try and include some rare items that have never been issued on CD and I try and add a bit of variety with jazz, light music, comedy and other ‘novelty’ records that employed a dance band - there’s plenty of the latter to choose from! :o))
Regards,
John Wright
On the BBC R4 Feedback programme 18/09/09 I thought all the ‘callers’ got their points across very well, but issues with the music playlist on Radio 2, the loss of dance band music, and the replacement of Wogan with Chris Evans are all subjects that have upset Radio 2 listeners and yet they have to air these grievances on a Radio 4 programme?
As usual the BBC spokesperson, controller Bob Shennan, did not really address the issues. I’ve posted aboput Chris Evans elsewhere.
Bob Shennan did sound sympathetic to Malcolm Laycock, and mentioned private issues as well as programme and contract issues, but I have seen little evidence of his claim that British dance band music will still be included in R2 schedules. There’s no point just scattering the odd track during Clare Teal or Desmond’s shows; fans of British dance band music don’t want to listen to Stan Kenton and Glenn Miller for an hour in the hope of hearing a Billy Cotton record.
And about the Radio 2 playlist, and in particular the daytime playlist. Shennan tries to justify the predominance of chart pop music during the daytime and says there’s only 4% overlap with other BBC stations. I think he forgot to include BBC Local Radio in his comparison. It’s clear to me that the R2 daytime playlists do not cater for millions of licence payers who have developed music tastes outside pop chart.
Unbelievably Shennan said Radio 2 “should not be playing what other stations don’t play” - eh, Bob, I suggest you read the Radio 2 licence documents, the remit requires that Radio 2 complement other stations and not compete with them.
So Shennan clearly states that he has no intention of complying with the licence requirements. I hope the BBC Trust look into Shennan’s plans for Radio 2 more closely before any further changes take place.
John Wright
Did anyone catch Desmond Carrington’s remark towards the end of his programme about Ann Shelton last week? He echoed her words about songs of quality that deserve to be heard again, and said that radio stations should be aware of it. I think he said as much as he dared in the circumstances.
Very Interesting, Peter - ironically the last 5 minutes of the show have been cut off of the listen again recording (it seems due to a late start) which I tried to listen to yesterday.
I think you’ll find that if you listen to the next programme, you will get the last of desmond’s show. This does happen with the automatic timings. I have had it happen with listen to the band. i suspect on this occaision it is technology’s fault and not nothing else.
I listened last night to hear the british bands. there were a couple . oh that there were more.
Thanks Brian - I will try and paste the two parts of the show together.
>>>fans of British dance band music don’t want to listen to Stan Kenton and Glenn Miller for an hour in the hope of hearing a Billy Cotton record.
Whilst I take on board the sentiments of John W’s comment (above), may I suggest that it does our cause no good to start drawing too many fine lines between what traditional Radio 2 listeners do and don’t want?
Personally, (and as I mentioned in a previous posting) my preference is for Messrs Miller, Kenton, Shaw, etc. rather than for British dance bands but I am quite happy to live and let live. I think we may rest assured that with R2’s remit to attract younger listeners, some in authority will already have their sights set on the big bands and other popular music of that era. Surely a large voice for 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s popular music as a whole can shout a lot louder than several smaller separate groups each shouting for British dance bands, big bands, trad jazz, light orchestral or whatever their preference happens to be.
Best wishes,
Steve
That’s a good point Steve. We really ought to stand together.
RDS
Steve R, and RDS,
I DO agree that a large voice for 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s popular music as a whole can shout a lot louder that separate groups; the point I was making was that I don’t accept Radio 2’s answer, to include a token British dance band track in an hour long show. Even the show 20/09, although it had three ‘British dance band’ tracks they were not traditional dance band tracks, all of them were swing without vocals.
McDowall said British dance band music would be included ‘on merit’. Looks like Sam Costa, Denny Dennis and Phyllis Robins are going to be excluded.
John W
Point taken John W! I was not overly happy at the lack of dance band music last night either, although it was better than nothing I suppose. There is still the lack of authority in Ms Teal’s voice, but this may yet come.
However the serious point is, if we cannot communicate our point effectivley to each other (me included), we haven’t got much hope with persuading the BBC.
I believe we should be saying, with one voice as far as possible, something like “20s-50s music, generally, is underrepresented on Radio 2 and the Dance Bands now perhaps more underrepresented than most types. More specialist programmes of every sort, please!”
The thing is however, every enthusiast will want to change “Dance Bands” in the last paragraph to whatever his/her chosen field is.
RDS
Please note I do not want to criticise Ms Teal’s programme unduly, in case they take that off as well…….
RDS
>>>Looks like Sam Costa, Denny Dennis and Phyllis Robins are going to be excluded.
Don’t worry - Denny Dennis can slip in under the wire “with vocal refrain” courtesy of his days with Tommy Dorsey!
>>>I believe we should be saying, with one voice as far as possible, something like “20s-50s music, generally, is underrepresented on Radio 2 and the Dance Bands now perhaps more underrepresented than most types. More specialist programmes of every sort, please!”
That seems to sum it up pretty well with the possible exception of the last sentence. I suggest that variety and a broad-base is the secret of many programmes’ success (as with Malcolm Laycock before the dance bands were scrapped). When things get too specialist is when some people turn off or get upset. (If ever there’s a regular pan pipes music programme, I’ll be straight off the nearest bridge!)
Best wishes,
Steve
I’m treating this as a separate post rather than tacking it on to my ramblings above. Last week I attended “An Evening with Johnnie Walker” at Tavistock, one of a series of evenings that Johnnie is presenting around the country. Although references to dance band/big band music were rather minimal (OK, non-existent!) the evening was very entertaining and well worth turning up for. The second half was a Q & A session and apart from the inevitable questions about JW’s scrapes with the law involving drugs a little stronger than aspirins, several members of the audience queried his opinion on the direction being taken by R2. In particular, there must have been half a dozen questions regarding Sir Tel’s departure and why wasn’t JW replacing him instead of the brash Mr Evans. JW’s answer was fairly simply that he hadn’t been asked, but he did mention more than once that he felt that Radio 2 was no longer catering for the older listener in the way that it once did. I’m sure that he wasn’t implying that a higher dance band content was required, but rather more in the way of the Beatles, Eagles, Supertramp, etc. (My reference books tell me that these were purveyors of popular music in the late 1960s/early 1970s - combos of some sort).
Anyway, my point (yes, there is one) is that it seems it may not just be followers of our musical tastes who are unhappy with R2 but also those of more recent genres.
Best wishes,
Steve
Steve - you make some excellent points (not least about the Pan Pipes). What we used to get on radio 2 is a greater variety of music througout all of its “mainstream” shows. Which meant that, for example, the breakfast show would play a number of current pop songs, a handful of older pop songs, a smattering of 50s and 60s music and the occasional dance band and big band and classical tune. Plus not so very long ago, it also include session music recorded specifically for the show.
The down-side is that you might get the occasional pan pipe track in there, or something else you are not that keen on. The up-side being that it was, on the whole, fair and balanced and everything was easy on the ear.
BBC local radio often seems to do this better than image conscious Radio 2. Radio 2 seems obsessed with providing trendy groups and fashionable artists and it sometimes feels these days like Jonathan Ross and Stuart Maconie are selecting all the music for the daytime shows.
But RDS is also absolutely spot on. While we still get a smattering of Supertramp but heaps of the Beatles and Rolling Stones (because these groups are, of course, very “cool” at the moment), the wonderful catalogue from the 20s to the 50s gets little to no airplay.
Confining this music to specialist shows is not, I agree, the best approach. But a policy to be more inclusive across the board, which for example would allow Desmond Carrington to play lots of music from this era instead of forcing him to play current (and pan pipe) music, surely makes sense.
There is a section of the listening public that is not being served at all. What we really need is a station for us. This used to be Radio 2, but it has been disfigured beyond recognition, and it’s now gone beyond the point of no return.
Does the public need BBC Radio 6 in its current format? Or would it prefer a station repeating the wealthy archive of musical shows that the BBC must have, together with a selection of dance bands, big bands, American popular song, light music, and some 60s & 70s easy listening? I’d be happy for shows that play Supertramp, The Carpenters and The Eagles alongside Michael Buble and Diana Krall, presented by people such as Bill Rennells, Colin Berry, Sheila Tracy and Tony Myatt, intermingled between more dedicated shows featuring music from the 20s -50s. America does this very well indeed through the “Music Of Your Life” network. America has not abandoned its older listener, nor has it overlooked the younger ones who are bored of the same old same old.
The BBC overcame copyright issues to do this with comedy and spoken word (Radio 7). Why can’t they do the same with music? The answer is because such music is not fashionable.
In essence, what many of us would like is a proper light and easy station, playing a mix of quality music, presented by experienced presenters. Not the nonsense efforts that everyone assume is easy listening (such as Smooth FM and Magic).
@Radiocafé,
Your first paragraph harks back to a time when only three radio stations were broadcast on FM (VHF!), and the music you are talking about was (just) within the living memory of people who were still at work.
We’re nearly half a century past that now. Radio 2 can’t go back there.
I don’t think _any_ radio station can go back there - a “broad” station worked when there were only three stations available; it makes less sense when there are 10 (FM), 50 (DAB), or thousands (the net).
Also, people who danced to this music in the 1920s are now over 100 years old. By-and-large the audience for this music is no longer from people who remember it first time around. That at least implies a different approach.
Apart from any “cross over” hits (who knows what music may be used in a successful film or TV series of the future), I wouldn’t expect to hear 50+ year old music on daytime Radio 2.
However, I’m all for “specialist” shows and “specialist” radio networks. I wouldn’t attack Radio 6, but whatever happens to BBC Radios 1, 1X, 2, 6 etc, somehow we surely need a “Radio 8″.
I think we would have had a successful national commercial version of Radio 8 in the form of PrimeTime, had not the slow uptake of DAB killed the commercial possibilities there.
So, there’s a gap in the market - one which Aunty should be filling. As you rightly say, she has a great archive to mine. Sadly, I don’t hold out much hope. I think it’s more likely that commercial and “free” internet stations / programmes will (already have!) filled the gap. I sincerely wish them luck - we should support them in any way we can.
Cheers,
David.
>>>I think it’s more likely that commercial and “free” internet stations / programmes will (already have!) filled the gap. I sincerely wish them luck - we should support them in any way we can.
I don’t think Internet stations come anywhere near filling gaps in our interest or anyone else’s as they rely on being next to a computer rather than receivable by the ubiquitous cheap and cheerful “tranny” that can follow us to the garage, bedroom and even (if necessary) the loo. As regards DAB, it’s such an ill-conceived system in terms of broadcast/reception technicalities that was launched far too soon on an unsuspecting public. I bought a system but have so far failed to obtain anything like usable reception. I discovered last week that my neighbours have physically dumped their one year old Sony DAB radio having given up on it.
Steve
Steve:
I don’t think we are at odds here: specialist programmes in the evening and “mixed” formats during the rest of the day.
It’s a format that worked well on Radio 1, Radio 2 and used also to work on capital.
2bedecided:
I am not really convinced by the “listeners would be over 100 now” argument - Beethoven and Co still rock now, but no-one alive now was there the first time around!
Internet radio etc have taken off probably becuase of the BBC’s failings. However, not everyone is wired for sound, and so why are we deenying them the choice of listening?
cheers
RDS
@Steve,
Haven’t you heard of wi-fi? Podcasts?
Wi-fi certainly follows me around the house - even into the loo, and out into the garden too.
Podcasts happily follow me around the world on my cheap-and-cheerful mp3 player, along with downloaded-and-saved internet radio streams. I have “ALAN DELL’S DANCE BAND DAYS” from the top of this page on there too - I’d love to hear some more of those.
Consuming “radio” this way is far far far more useful and convenient (for me, YMMV) than listening on FM, where you have to be in range of the station (useless for out-of-range BBC local stations), get decent reception where and when you want to listen (useless on the London underground, on many trains, and as it happens, fairly useless in my kitchen!), and be willing to listen at the time the programme of interest is broadcast (near useless when the content is shunted to a graveyard slot, or for that matter when I’m at work). The where-you-like when-you-like convenience of “radio” downloaded to an mp3 player is a joy in comparison.
I don’t claim to be typical, but this might be “typical” within a generation - I heard (in a lecture from a BBC executive) that less than half of Radio 1’s evening audience listens via FM.
@RDS,
Radio 3 does a great job of playing music that no one now alive heard first time around, and Classic FM is a highly successfully dumbed down commercialised version of it.
Radio 3 also covers the era we are discussing, but only “classical” and jazz music from that period. Radio 3 draws a distinction between “merely” popular music, and music with long term merit. It’s a point I’m not sure it’s worth arguing, and they did do a series called “Cocktails” in the early 1990s which played exactly this kind of music, so you never know.
Most of the people listening to The Beatles didn’t hear them first time around either.
My point wasn’t that it shouldn’t be played - it’s that it changes the way in which it should be played. It goes from “here’s a song that Moreen heard the day she met Harry, and they’re celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary today” to “this is the first recording of a song that was covered over a hundred times during the following century, and features the composer on the piano”. It also goes from “let’s play songs from the entire history of recorded music” to “lets play songs from this ~50 year bracket” because almost no audience wants _more_ variation than 50 years.
I note, for example, that while we have a unique British recorded heritage of music hall from the turn of the last century, no one is demanding that it should be included in Radio 2’s daytime playlist, or for that matter have a weekly slot.
Expecting this treatment of music from the 1920s today is like expecting this treatment for music from the 1880s when Radio 2 started. I wasn’t born in 1967, but did Radio 2 cover such music back then? I know there have been specific shows on music hall, but did they play wax cylinder recordings of Florrie Ford on daytime Radio 2 in 1967?
I’m guessing not.
(btw, you can download podcasts of such recordings here…
http://homepage.mac.com/rfwilmut/PodcastRW/page3/page3.html
…and some dancebands too).
Me, I’d be happy with an hour a week somewhere on a national BBC network - and in heaven if we had BBC Radio 8 or a commercial equivalent covering the ~1950s and before. Even some lighter things from the 1960s and 1970s would be fine too, as long as it didn’t cross over current Radio 2 too much. Though the way things are going, you could re-launch Melody FM and it wouldn’t trample over 2009 Radio 2 much at all.
Cheers,
David.
>>>@Steve,
>>>Haven’t you heard of wi-fi? Podcasts?
>>>Wi-fi certainly follows me around the house - even into the loo, and out into >>>the garden too.
I’ve heard of such things but have no first-hand experience of them. I have computing facilities at work but nothing beyond a ten year old computer at home, connected to the world via a 56K modem.
Steve
David:
funny you should mention Music Hall, because i would indeed like to hear some on radio (although i do have a few lp’s of the genre). It occurs to me that those perennial favourites, the Muppets used to use old music hall numbers for their shows: “Waiting at the Church” and “Lydia the Tattoed Lady” being two! So Music Halll is not dead either.
Thanks for the links and further info.
Given the spectrum of BBC radio and airtime to fill, surely there must be space for the varoius musics mentioned in this thread; this is particulalry the case when Radio 6 seems to be what Radio 2 wants to be anyway. Do we need two radio 2’s or 6’s? The airtime is there: I hear that all media formats are struggling for “content” ie what to put on.
RDS
I think most of the problem we have is that the pendulum has swung too far the other way. I also have wifi everywhere, including in the loo, and am the proud owner of eight internet radios. Much as I enjoy the music broadcasts from the States, such as Airstream FM playing light music and Big Band Central as the name suggests playing 24hr big band era music (albeit on a bit of a loop), there are no presenters to educate and inform and provide the sort of broadcasting that Alan Dell and Malcolm Layock gave us.
A pure commercial venture cannot provide this. Shows such as Dance Band Days are too expensive and the market is just not big enough. Which is why we rely on the BBC, which competes with the big commercial market when these listeners are already so very well served by commercial radio. You can get the sort of music Radio 2 plays in abundance from Capital Radio, Heart 106.2fm and the like but we can’t get any Vic Damone or Tony Bennett anywhere, other than on a largely presenterless internet. I challenge anyone to name a light music show which educates as well as entertains anywhere on the internet, the sort which Brian Kaye presented for one hour a week until Radio 3 changed its policy. Angel Radio probably comes closest I guess.
And if the presenterless internet is all I can access I may as well play my CDs and old radio recordings. Fine for you and me perhaps , but what of the next generation? Is it fair they be denied all this great music? I can easily turn to my collection of Radio 2 of old. They won’t even know much of this music exists.
Music from the late 19th century is in fact an excellent example. Radio 2 produced a marvellous show of this music during in the late 1980s and early 1990s, entitled “Those Beautiful Ballad Years”. It featured old ballads from the late 19th and early 20th century (many Irish) and introduced me to some of the most wonderful music I have ever heard. Tunes such as “Barbara Allen” and a “Rose of Killarney” (you can sample them here http://www.radiocafe.co.uk/mike-redway). The songs were all sung by Mike Redway, arrangements by Neil Richardson, compere Pat Marsh, producer Mel South. As a result of this show, I contacted Mike Redway a few years ago and I’ve now become good friends with both him and Neil Richardson (who is of course most famous for composing the Mastermind theme, but is in fact one of the nation’s finest composers and arrangers, but few would know this). I, and many others, have as a result discovered great music we would never had done without this show.
I should add that the library of incredible music Neil Richardson produced in his time at the BBC is not only vast but first rate. But it sits on the shelves gathering dust. I can honestly say it will never be rebroadcast by the BBC again, even though Neil has the rights to these recordings and there are no legal issues to overcome. Equally, a show such as the Ballad Years will never be aired again.
Have times moved on and this is simply progress? If it happened that I in my early 20s could get hooked on this kind of music thanks to the BBC, then surely this represents neither progress nor “serving the needs of a new generation”.
As RDS says, music is never “out of date”. Classical music only has the following it does because people have been able to listen to it and learn about it. Where can you both listen to and learn about dance bands and light music these days, let alone the ballads from the 1880s? No amount of new technology, the Spotifys and Podcasts of the world, are going to help.
It’s interesting to see how much pleasure the Alan Dell MP3 recording from 1979 has brought visitors to this site. Does this show have a sell-by date? So why is this type of broadcast deemed so unfashionable these days?
I concede Radio 2 is never going to go back to what it was. But we’re not suggesting it should. Much has been taken from us and much more from those who served the BBC so very well.
It is just so sad that they have to take ALL of it, and not use any of the new technologies to give us a little something back in return.
.. just to get a bit nerdy here for a moment, I should add that Ken Bruce in fact used to play a few music hall items here and there when he presented the breakfast show, as recently as 1990. Most of these were by Cosmotheka, who had their own music hall show on Radio 2 in 1992 (”Cosmotheka’s Comedy Songbook”). Not everyone’s cup of tea perhaps, but some of their songs were quite funny.
I will try and put a couple of Radio 2 breakfast shows up here soon to see if visitors think quality has increased or decreased. I have a few Ray Moore, Ken Bruce and Chris Stuart from the 80s and early 90s. Music aside, I don’t think the quality of presenter has in fact got better, but that’s of course purely a matter of opinion, quite widespread opinion it seems.
On this point, if you could, would you swap:
Sarah Kennedy for Ray Moore?
Elaine Page for Benny Green?
Dale Winton for Alan Dell
Stuart Maconie for John Dunne?
Steve Wright for Gloria Hunniford?
Claire Teal for Sheila Tracy?
Mark Lamaaarrr for Steve Race?
Chris Evans for Terry Wogan?
Brian matthews for… er…. Brian Matthews?!
radiocafe: i would like to echo the sentiment in your last post.
Music without a knowledgeable presenter is missing a certain something: yes, i do have a quite a numebr of the tracks played by Malcolm and even Mark Lamarr’s 50s and 60s shows BUT i prefer to listen to the same tunes on a radio show that has been put together with craft, thought and feeling. My cd’s and lps cannot compete with that and nor can faceless internet stations. Angel radio happily avoids this with its varied playlist and personable presenters and is all the more human for it.
Your link to the Alan Dell show was a revelation: how many people have listened by chance and enjoyed it? From the posts, at least a few. It brings to mind a time when I was on a working weekend away at a firm with a mixed age range of attendeed. A friend of this forum/thread took along a video of Laurel and Hardy for us to enjoy in some free time. At first the other people wrote it off as “old hat”, however after a very short while we had a full room of smiling happy individuals (it was a miserable weekend apart from that…). All this, from 1930’s comedians, supposedly past it and in the heyday of alternative comedy.
I would say a rerun of Alan Dell shows would have a whole new audience.
I know the analogy is not 100% perfect but it’s a fair approximation. After all, you can’t say you don’t like it until you’ve tried it really.
RDS
RDS: you are absolutely spot on, and the analogy is (for me at least) perfect.
Sarah Kennedy for Ray Moore? RM
Elaine Page for Benny Green? BG
Dale Winton for Alan Dell? AD
Stuart Maconie for John Dunne? JD (although Maconie is in part responsible fo the Count Arthur Strong radio show)
Steve Wright for Gloria Hunniford? Stewpot
Claire Teal for Sheila Tracy? ST
Mark Lamaaarrr for Steve Race? ML (sorry!)
Chris Evans for Terry Wogan? Pete Murray
Brian matthews for… er…. Brian Matthews?! i’ll go for BM
For the record, Lydia The Tattoed Lady is not as Music Hall song but was written by Harold Arlen and E Y Harburg for Groucho Marx to sing in 1939, the same year they also wrote Over The Rainbow.
Howard
And why was legend Stuart Hall dropped as a radio 2 presenter? He still soldiers on doing the lower league footie reports on Five Live.
Alan Carr for Stuart Hall?
Liza Tarbuck for Jimmy, who used to fill the same time slot not all that long ago (ho-ho!)?
thanks Howard
perhaps i should have said Music Hall or Vaudeville style!
RDS
In message Radiocafe wrote
>I challenge anyone to name a light music show which educates as well
>as entertains anywhere on the internet, the sort which Brian Kaye
>presented for one hour a week until Radio 3 changed its policy.
Well, I did produce a few ‘internet shows’ of Parlour Songs earlier this year,
and may do a few more. They use original 78’s from 1920s-1940 and can still be downloaded. Scroll down the page for photos and lyrics.
http://www.r2ok.co.uk/parloursongs.htm
–
John Wright
An item on Yahoo! News leapt out at me this morning. Evidently the House of Commons Select Comittee on Culture, Media and Sport has accused the BBC Trust of “arrogance”. This is a reference to the activities of BBC Worldwide and not a programming issue, but hey… we are not alone.
John W: fantastic, I will have a listen to this. Well done and keep up the good work!
Peter B: not surprising. The worry is that the BBC Trust is fueling the anti-BBC lobby (led behind the scenes by the likes of Sky). I think the majority of us are in no way anti-BBC and would hate to see the BBC forced to be funded by advertising. What we in fact want is a halt to the erosion of what has been and still largely is one of our finest institutions. The problem is not with the BBC itself, nor the licence fee, nor the BBC Trust. The problem seems to be middle-to-upper management who, as far as we can see (and like most large organisations these days), aren’t well equipped to do the jobs for which they are paid so handsomly from licence fee funds. Those execs who felt that it was good commercial sense to pay millions for talent like Graham Norton. Those execs who refused a small pay rise on the comparatively miniscule salary of real talent like Malcolm Laycock.
And, from the experience we have had of dealing with them, many seem to suffer from an arrogance and inflexibility to deal fairly with our valid concerns. It is this which gives the Trust a reputation of arrogance. But it is also this which is adding all the weight to the anti-BBC/license fee argument.
For the record, we think it would be the worst tragedy in broadcasting history if the licence fee were abolished and the BBC were to be funded by advertising.
Radiocafe,
I agree entirely with your comments regarding the licence fee. At its current cost (somewhere around £150 a year, I think) it represents a charge of around and about 50p per day per household (not even per person) for a pretty good range of generally high quality TV and radio programmes. I, for one, will happily continue to pay that if it saves me from some of the “lowest common denominator” dross and endless advertisements peddled by the commercial TV and radio channels. Sadly, I suspect that a) we will continue to pay the BBC, b) we will end up with lowest common denominator dross anyway and c) we may even have to swallow advertising as well! Your point about Graham Norton’s salary (a change for someone not to go for Mr Ross!) versus the extra packet of fags a week for Malcolm Laycock was especially pertinent.
Steve
well said radiocafe
a halt to the erosion just sums everything up both in the contest of what is being discussed and life in general but thats another subject.
I’ve just posted a video response to Bob Shennan’s ‘Feedback’ appearance on 18th September.
Because of copyright issues, I have only been able to use music for which I own the copyright.
The link is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb8YFosSChw
I’ve just uploaded the video again with the sound balanced
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RncPyjHuK2o
John, I just viewed the video. Very nicely put together. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to keep the debate alive on different platforms.
RE VINTAGE DANCE BAND MUSIC ON RADIO 2 - Yes Angel Radion A good station/website - Also why not log on to SPOTIFY just type in the name of your favorite Big Band - nearly 400 Joe Loss tracks 30’s to late 60’s moe than 500 Ted Heath but mant are repeat tracks 7 x OPUS ONE plus Geraldo,Ken Mac,Eric Winstone,Victor Silvester & many more plus most American Big Bands-They do mix up the titles at times - Happy Listening -
This thread seems to have gone a bit quiet. Is it continuing somewhere that I don’t know about?? I have been listening via the web to Radio Norfolk’s two-hour Saturday night programme The Late Paul Barnes. It is a wonderful mix of jazz and big band presented by a man who really knows what he is talking about. What a shame it is limited to East Anglia and therefore unavailable to thousands of listeners who have no access to the web. Radio 2 could learn a lot from him.
Hi Eileen,
Agree about Paul Barnes. This is probably the best show on radio at the moment. It is accessible on the internet on Iplayer at:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p002mhdx
If I were Bob Shennan, I’d book him to revitalise Radio 2 at a stroke
Hi Eileen
the same thought crossed my mind too, i thought perhaps we were all listening to Angel or the other fine podcast link mentioned in this thread: i know i am!! After the Roy Fox album i am listening to now, i’ll try Paul Barnes.
regards
RDS
I had a great evening listening to Paul Barnes’ Show (have saved it to Favourites) and John Wright’s wonderful podcasts. Keep it up John!
Regards
RDS
Is anyone going to give this weekend’s Sunday Night at Ten a fair hearing?
I see Paul Barnes’ show is aired over a few local BBC radio stations. I wonder if he is being primed for general networking?
RDS
“I see Paul Barnes’ show is aired over a few local BBC radio stations. I wonder if he is being primed for general networking?”.
Paul was on from 6 - 9 on Essex, Cambs, Northampton, Norfolk, & Suffolk. Earlier this year they chopped an hour, moved it to 11pm - 1AM but gave him BBC Kent & 3 Counties. It is still a massive area, but I doubt it will go national, although it deserves to.
Paul celebrated 40 years of broadcasting a few weeks back. He has been on Radio 4 and had a series on Anglia TV a few years ago, which was very popular. He has also made some films of steam trains, which were released by the BFI on DVD. He writes prolifically for various journals - so he’s a busy lad.
In other words, just the sort of broadcaster, like Malcolm Laycock, you would think that Bob Shennan would be eager to engage!
Still pigs might fly.
If you tune in, please e-mail Paul and let him know you are listening
paul.barnes@bbc.co.uk
We in the Eastern region, fought tooth and nail some years back when the axe was threatened. He used to do 5 nights a week, 10 - midnight - the slot Keith Skues now does.
Eventually wiser council prevailed and Paul was given the weekend show. More than a decade on, he is still providing the most varied jazz, big band, light music show anywhere on the networks.
In response i have listened to sunday night at ten but i am sorry, i find no warmth or feeling in Claire’s presentation. its not her fault, she, i think, is just not suited to that programme. Whilst i do like the other swing stuff, i do love the british bands. they have a jolity that others dont. maybe that is also part of the problem. after all music does have a powerfull voice.
Yes, I agree about Paul Barnes, he is excellent. There are others, too, on local radio who know their dance bands: Frank Wappatt on BBC Radio Newcastle (who knows more about music than just about anyone); good old “cardboard shoes”, Keith Skues on Norfolk; Dewi Griffiths on Wales; John Bennett on Ulster; Colin Berry on Three Counties; Gerald Jackson on Lancashire; and presumably many others. What all these have in bucketloads is experience.
These are all fine, experienced broadcasters who could easily pick up where Malcolm left off. Unfortunately, Claire seems to lack sincerity and it feels like radio by numbers. Perhaps this is simply her lack of experience; but she doesn’t come across as a lover of the genre or a “natural” at this sort of broadcasting. Sure, she can read a script quite well (especially when it is written by Russell Davies). But she really isn’t the right choice for this show.
Did anyone see Bob Shennan’s Q&A at the back of the Radio Times? The answers were as to be expected, but at least there were a couple of questions asking why BBC Radio 2 has changed direction etc.. The real problem is that if you looked through his own CD collection, I bet it is full of the kind of music Radio 2 is so keen to play nowadays, i.e. Coldplay, Winehouse et al. He seems to think it is justification that some old rocker likes to listen to “young music”. But clearly from his answers, yet again he misses the point.
Let’s face it chaps: Radio 2 is a lost cause. We saw this day back in 1990 when Frances Line started to adopt the same don’t care attitude to the station that our current crop of politicians have taken to their expenses. I gave up complaining to the BBC in around 2000, not being able to take any more of the stock BBC management responses.
Bob Shennan will not change his attitude. Don’t be fooled by the occasional token item of Julie London every couple of days. Forget it, the die is cast. And anyhow, who wants what’s left of Radio 2, apart from perhaps David Jacobs,Russell Davies, Dessie and Nigel Ogden?
Who wants our kind of music served up by the Chris Evanses and Claire Teals and Stuart Maconies? All of whom I suspect have rarely if ever played a dance band CD other than when being paid handsomely by the BBC to do so.
We don’t want our music to be seen as a novelty by the station via such individuals.
What we should really be after is for the BBC to scrap BBC 6 Music or 1xtra and use the bandwith of one of them to turn it into a proper light and easy station with presenters who actually care. Giving the over-60s and those of us under-60s who prefer Crosby to Coldplay, Bennett to Beyonce and Ambrose to Allen.
I seriously think we should be lobbying on this basis. The BBC cannot justify 1xtra and 6 Music while at the same time it has stolen all the light, popular song and dance bands from the many of us who love this type of music. It fudges the arguments on Radio 2 by saying that it has “broad appeal” and many older listeners like hip hop and rock music etc.. But the existence of 1xtra and 6 Music is more blatantly unfair to those of us who do not want gangsta rap and grunge. It is not fair to both older liseners and the younger ones (such as me). This is an issue about the type musical offering not age. But by relying on the age argument, in fact the BBC is also being unfair to the under-35s too as they will NEVER have access to dance bands, light music and the classic popular song.
Sinatra, Bennett, Crosby, Holiday, Fitzgerald are regarded as the finest vocalists of all time. The dance band era laid the path for these singers. Surely, then, all this wonderful music warrants the BBC providing them with a suitable place on the DAB/internet dial?
In summary: why, BBC, do you offer a station dedicated to classical music, three playing a vast majority of rock, dance, pop and new music, one for Asian music yet NOTHING for dance bands, jazz, light and easy?
well said radiocafe. they say it takes a big man to say oops sorry. guess there are no big guys about these days. Certainly not at the BBC it seems.
(Quoting Radiocafé in message 257:
“I seriously think we should be lobbying on this basis.”)
Thank you Radiocafé for setting out the problem so clearly. So many of us have written to the BBC outlining our individual grouses which clearly will not effect any change of policy.
(Quoting RDS in message 222:
“I believe we should be saying, with one voice as far as possible, something like “20s-50s music, generally, is under-represented on Radio 2 and the Dance Bands now perhaps more under-represented than most types.
The thing is however, every enthusiast will want to change “Dance Bands” in the last paragraph to whatever his/her chosen field is.”)
Yes, ONE voice is needed. We all grouch and grumble in hundreds of words on this and other message boards which at least makes each one of us feel that we are not alone in our dissatisfaction, but that is as far as it goes. Could it be possible to compose a concise statement which will encompass all our views and somehow get the support of a high-profile “name” who would be willing to publicise it?
One voice seems to be a good idea but may be difficult to arrange. Meanwhile the anniversary of the Dance Bands Demise approaches. How about a mass e-mailing on the actual day, this would at least demonstrate the strength of our feelings. For myself R2 simply no longer exists. A separate dedicated channel might just be possible, perhaps we could call it the Light Programme. By the way, my thanks to John Wright who I think may well have kept me sane through all this.
You may come up against brick walls if you simply ask for a genre-specific service from the BBC. Angel Radio certainly wouldn’t be playing music from 1900 to 1959 if we had asked for a genre-specific broadcast licence.
The BBC does not provide a radio service for the top end of “more mature” (and yes I know that lots of younger people like our type of music too) so, in my humble opinion, you need to use the age argument and then sort out your genres once you’ve got the licence.
It’s all a game of getting what you want by acting laterally.
I am pleased to see the debate enlivened again, and think that there are a lot of valid points there. Specifically, I think we should acknowledge Tony Smith’s expertise in this area to further this (not-lost-yet) cause.
I appreciate Tony is probably swamped by the work he does for Angel and other important things, and that a new Light Programme would be a sort of competitor to Angel perhaps, but personally I would wlecome any further steer Tony could give on this topic. When i was just starting out in my job, my firm had the task of taking Kiss FM from being a “pirate station” to having an FM licence. It was some time ago and i still recall there being quite a lot of work……….
Happy listening!
RDS
Interesting mix on Claire Teal’s show last night. Now too bad a show if you haven’t heard Malcolm before (I don’t mean to sound back-handed).
However, whereas Malcolm would have played a relatively little known vocal refrain by Al Bowlly, Ms Teal went with the perennial “Goodnight Sweatheart”.
I often wonder if overplaying one tune gets listeners into the genre or actually turns them off. I don’t mind the tune at all but for some, it’s the Dance Dand equivalent of of “Mack the Knife” or “Chicago etc” (both of which I am not a fan in the slightest) and has the opposite effect.
That said, i think Ms Teal was actually trying last night, but not as trying as Russell Davies playing “Come Home Speedy Gonzales!”
Happy listening!
RDS
I’m perfectly happy to help in whatever way I can. I certainly wouldn’t see a Light Programme as competition. All I want is for our kind of music to be heard by as many people as possible and, with the same station, providing older people with something other than modern music to listen to. What I don’t want is another “pretend” oldie station like Saga, which spouted on about all the old music they would be playing if they got a licence, and then played one 1940s and a couple of 1950s records amongs bucket-loads of the modern trendy stuff.
I really do think that the Beeb would be much happier to be seen to be providing a service for older people who want to hear old music than to be playing old music for any age of listener.
What would you like me to do to help take this forward?
PS - We still haven’t raised enough money to be heard on the national digital network, but we do have enough to go on the Hampshire digital network. Hopefully they will have us on before Christmas.
I’m not sure “Scrap this radio station and give us the one we want instead” is a workable approach.
“The New Light Programme” might have more justification, potential reach, and audience than 6Music or 1Xtra, but suggesting it should replace them probably isn’t the way to go.
Far better to show how the BBC is failing a huge group of listeners, and ask them to provide for them. If the unserved demographic outnumbers the audience for two or more existing BBC radio stations, it makes it a stronger argument - but let them work out how to solve the situation themselves - whether to launch a new station in addition to what they have, or make space by culling an existing one.*
They may bleat about cost. This should be countered with “public value” and “value for money” arguments.
I wonder if they shouldn’t make better use of 198LW by broadcasting a mix of R4, BBC7, and The New Light Programme. Though I’m aware that changes to 198LW really incense a vocal minority of R4 fans!
Cheers,
David.
* - they really need to sort out the continuum of 1Xtra, 1, 6 music, and 2 - but leave that argument to someone else. They’re never going to turn R2 back into the Light Programme, so let others worry about what R2 becomes - concentrate on what you want.
David - I think you make a lot of very sensible comments.
Incidentally our views on 6 Music, for those of you who haven’t seen it, can be found on another post on these Talk pages - click here to view.
It may also help to have some higher profile figures suggesting similar things to some of those offered up here. Unfortunately, the majority of Radiocafe’s contacts are all individuals whom BBC Radio 2 decided to get rid of! Some of these may still be helpful to the cause, for example occasional R2 contributor David Ades over at the Farnon society has been a very good promoter of the light music cause for many years; but what we could really do with is a Gillian Reynolds or another high profile journalist to help our campaign. Or perhaps a leading musician (perhaps best not to approach Claire Teal to help out on this…)
Incidentally, does anyone know what became of UK Light Radio, the commercial venture that was/is being set up? See: http://www.uklightradio.co.uk/ for their temporary website, which seems to have fallen into abeyance.
Thanks again to everyone (and a particular well done to John Petters) for your continued contributions and efforts to this important cause.
Paul @ Radiocafe
Hi Folks,
I have today had this inadequate reply from Lucy Tristram at the BBC Trust.
The Trust is failing to deal with this complaint under the Agreement S90
“90. Some overriding principles that must be respected in relation to complaints
(1) There must be a clear division of responsibilities between the Trust and the Executive Board.
(2) The Trust must ensure that, so far as practicable, the published framework and procedures place a complainant on an equal footing with the BBC, the Trust, the Executive Board or the commercial arm (as the case may require).
(3) The Trust should not have a role in handling or determining individual complaints in the first instance, except where the complaint relates to any act or omission of the Trust itselfor of the Trust Unit.
It is (3) which is the main thrust of my complaint. My letter of 17th August to Sir Michael Lyons started, “Re: Complaint: Serious Breaches of BBC Radio 2 Service Licence.
This complaint is addressed directly to you under the Agreement section 90 (3)
“The Trust should not have a role in handling or determining individual complaints in the first instance, except where the complaint relates to any act or omission of the Trust itself or of the Trust Unit”
Under the Royal Charter and the Agreement, the BBC Trust has the statutory duty to issue Service Licences to the various radio stations operated by the BBC.
The Royal Charter Section 24 Functions of the Trust
(2) The Trust has the general function of—
(c) issuing service licences for BBC services and monitoring compliance with them;
(f ) discharging the regulatory functions accorded to the Trust and holding the Executive Board to account for the BBC’s compliance with applicable regulatory requirements and the general law;
(h) where appropriate, conducting investigations into any activity of the BBC which it has grounds to suspect does not comply with requirements supervised by the Trust; “.
The reply I got today is as follows:
“20 October 2009
Our ref: 16906134
Dear Mr Petters
Thank you for your email of 15 September.
I note that you wish to complain about the Trust itself as you feel that
the Trust is not ensuring Radio 2 meets its Service Licence.
As I mentioned in my previous letter, the Trust is currently in the
process of conducting a service review of BBC Radio 2. The BBC’s
Agreement with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, which sits
alongside the Charter, requires the Trust to review service licences at
least once every five years. This process includes a review of the BBC’s
performance against each service licence.
As this service review is still in progress and conclusions have not yet
been published, I am unable to share details of these with you at this
stage. I would, however, like to assure you that the Trust is committed
to ensuring that the BBC’s management deliver the requirements set down
by the Trust in each of its service licences. The Trust may as a result
of the review, for example, determine that this has not been the case
and require changes to the BBC’s services; or, it might determine that
changes to the service licences themselves are required.
I would therefore suggest that when the Trust publishes its conclusions
in due course (likely to be early 2010), you contact us again if you are
still unhappy and feel that there is an aspect of the service that you
wish the Trust to consider. I will ensure you are informed when
publication takes place.
I hope this is helpful.
Yours sincerely
Lucy Tristram
Correspondence Adviser, BBC Trust Unit”.
It is far from helpful and has failed to deal with the complaint, which was formally submitted.
I intend to complain to the Sir Michael Lyons about his vice chairman’s failure to ensure that Sir Michael dealt with my complaint. I also intent to complain to the vice chairman, (does anyone know his name) about Sir Michael’s failure to address my complaint which is another breach of duty under S90 (3).
I think the Trust is in breach of s90 (1) above for failing to be separate and independent of the BBC.
It is time to lobby Jeremy Hunt MP and your own MP over these matters.
What the Trust does or doesn’t do about the Service Licence in 2010 has got nothing to do with anything. Radio 2 is in breach now and the Trust is colluding with the Management by not taking action.
Paul, I am more than happy for your website to be the channel through which action be taken. I will be mailing my National Traditional Jazz & swing Mailing List shortly and will include a note to encourage them all to write. We need a united body to co-ordinate this action. We do need to broaden it to include all under represented music and not just dance bands and jazz.
I’ll publish my reply to Ms Tristram when I have composed it.
John
My Reply to the Trust:
Dear Ms Tristram,
Your ref: 16906134
I refer to the email below in which you have again failed to allow this complaint to be put to the Trust. You wrote on 5th of September that I would receive a proper response. This you have failed to provide. I have to say that this is totally inadequate.
Will you please confirm that Sir Michael Lyons has received my letter of 17th August.
If he has seen and chosen to ignore my letter I will make a separate complaint about the breach of duty under S90 (3) of the Agreement to deal with a formal complaint.
Will you also pleaee supply the name of Sir Michael’s deputy in order that I may be able to complain to him about Sir Michael’s failure to act.
If Sir Michael has not received my complaint, then please provide an explanation why this is so.
The fact that the Trust is currently conducting a review into Radio 2 does not absolve it from ensuring complinace of its existing Service Licence.
“The Royal Charter Section 24 Functions of the Trust
(2) The Trust has the general function of—
(c) issuing service licences for BBC services and monitoring compliance with them; ”
The Trust is the representative of the Licence payer and has to act in our interests and not those of the Executive.
Please now address this matter as a matter of urgency.
Yours sincerely
John Petters
Copy to: Jeremy Hunt MP & John Hayes MP
What a cop-out by Lucy Tristam. In particular, the following sentence is all too familiar: “I would, however, like to assure you that the Trust is committed to ensuring that the BBC’s management deliver the requirements set down by the Trust in each of its service licences“. This is the sort of stock answer the BBC management always gives to any complaint. These people are programmed not to talk in specifics.
As mentioned by 2Bdecided above, and something that we learned ourselves long ago from some of our contacts at the BBC (including Malcolm himself), the BBC does not respond at all favourably to any form of criticism. We were advised that if you want anything to change you have to frame this in terms of praise. E.g. “I really liked the show on Benny Goodman - can we have more Big Bands please?”.
However, that was then and the reality of now is that neither approach is working. I think, John, your sort of efforts are more likely to lead not to a decent response from the BBC perhaps, but certaintly likely to result in greater publicity for the cause.
I can’t wait for the response of the survey on Radio 2 (…!), which will surely be used as propoganda to support the decision to take Radio 2 even further down its current path.
But we are right to press on specifically regarding dance bands. We are right to complain about the manner in which our complaints are handled. Your efforts, John Petters, are appreciated by all of us here. As is Tony Smith’s offer to draw upon his invaluable experience at the brilliant Angel Radio.
Perhaps we should now start to ramp up our campaign for a BBC station playing “our kind of music”. Perhaps this does, as 2Bedecided mentions, need to focus on the needs of “older” listeners, even though the reality is music should have little to do with your age.
The main issues we’ll face are a lack of any appetite for this among the mid-life-crisis execs, and the easiest of excuses which 2Bedecided highlights: money. In a time when the BBC is under more pressure to cut costs than ever before, it has the perfect cop-out excuse.
But the counter-arguments to these are that the licence fee is not being shared fairly, since a disproportionate share of the radio pot is being given up to the youth audience. Plus, our kind of music tends to be cheaper since we are happy for loads of repeats and most of our music is royalty free these days.
I could easily envisage a schedule that would keep many of us happy. Throughout the day, some mainstream shows featuring a mix of American popular song, some big bands, some dance bands, some light jazz, some of the modern “crooners” (for want of a better term). The sort of shows that the American “Music Of Your life” network plays. How about some repeats of “Music While You Work” throughout the day? Evenings could be dedicated to more specialist shows: jazz, dance bands, big bands, jump jive, profiles of leading singers, and repeats of classic Radio 2 shows, such as “Thanks For The Memory” and the many half hour recordings from over the years. The BBC is able to recycle old comedy shows on Radio 7, so it should be able to do the same on our station. At the weekend, how about some concerts and live performances from years bygone? I would love to hear some of the old BBC Radio Orchestra performances, or a 1970s Tony Bennett concert, or some live jazz from the 1960s. In fact, there is so much that a BBC station like this could do, with its vast archive of good music.
The sad fact is that the BBC has probably dumped much of its light and dance band music shows of old. But there are enthusiasts out there who retain top quality recordings of these shows. I have around 200 or so perfect recordings of Alan Dell’s Dance Band and Big Band Shows and about the same again of Sounds Easy. I have hundreds of the BBC Radio Orchestra Show recordings (these present trickier re-broadcasting issues for the BBC, given the number of musicians who appear, but the legal issues the BBC will raise can always be overcome). I have lots of other shows too. Light Music expert Brian Reynolds has masses of archive material of Music While You Work and other recordings. The Robert Farnon Society also has a decent archive of old shows. The BBC has relied on the public to supply lost copies of Dads Army, so it could easily turn to us for its radio heritage.
These are just a few ideas, and we are very keen to develop this idea with yours too.
The time has surely come for the BBC to give us Radio Eight/Light Radio. “Eight Light” is even a half decent name!
That’s certainly a cogent and positive argument!
Also the proposed/ideal schedule sounds very wide ranging and should cater to a lot of tastes. It probably also has the merit that listeners will listen past their chosen programmes and enjoy strolling down further avenues.
RDS
Yes I agree, a well thought out posting from Radio Cafe’.
May I comment on the mention of royalties included therein.
I’m not sure how the BBC work things out with PRS and PPL, but despite the fact that almost all of Angel Radio’s output is out of copyright, we pay the same as all the other stations with similar financial incomes. PRS and PPL base their bills on income rather than copyright.
Interesting stuff Tony, I didn’t realise that. Makes your venture even more impressive.
However, I wonder what claim PRS and PPL would have (if any) against you, given that ultimately there are few rights over broadast materials for which copyright has expired? I’m not sure this is a settled area, but naturually PRS is keen to maximise its income from wherever it can and will tell you that you must pay the fees, even where arguably you wouldn’t have to.
I can find out from Colin Berry what he does in respect of filling in the masses of paperwork required for broacast material, where the item is over 50 years old.
Out of interest, if you are paying similar amounts to other stations, what is the incentive to limit yourself to out of copyright material?
The other irony here is that it those that the laws were designed to protect that actually suffer from them. Thousands of internet radio stations out there freely play and stream current music without paying a penny to the PRS or PPL. I know of former FM radio pirate stations which, now they are on the interent, consider themselves as being “legal”, despite the fact that they don’t pay a penny to the PRS.
The reality is that it would be impossible for the collecting societies to enforce actions against these stations. In addition, there are bigger piracy issues out there than a few relatively innocent internet stations.
While on the other hand, the likes of Angel Radio and others fork out for excessive fees in respect of material for which the original producer doesn’t see a penny. You have no choice but to comply if you want to progress, but it really is not fair. And I very much wonder if the PRS are taking advantage here.
Either way, it’s not right, is it?
But our new BBC station should still be much cheaper, in terms of overheads if nothing else, if it relies a lot on repeats. Plus I suspect the BBC has its own favourable arrangements with the collecting societies.
RDS - any experience of this?
Recording copyright lasts 50 years (soon to be longer, thanks to the EU).
Composition copyright last life of composer + 70 years.
I can’t remember which collecting society is collecting money for which.
(IIRC “the singer” doesn’t get a penny in the USA, while “the writer” does. It’s all very strange. Common sense doesn’t seem to enter into it.)
I like the ideas in Radiocafe’s post 269 - especially getting some of the relevant older BBC shows re-broadcast - from copies held in private collections if necessary. Not to dominate the new network, but certainly to enrich it - I think it could be quite revealing how radio has changed over the years.
Cheers,
David.
Our incentive to play out of copyright music, even though we pay the same as stations playing music within copyright, is because the old music is better than modern music.
There is no “masses of paperwork” that we have to fill in. We pay a blanket fee based on our income. The paperwork is 2 or 3 sheets of A4 paper per quarter.
We do have to pay copyright separately on our internet broadcasts. We have to buy a licence to allow us stream our stations. If we were to provide podcasts or listen again facilities we would be charged even more.
Leeches, fleas, mosquitoes, vampires and other blood-sucking entities are miles behind PRS and PPL when it comes to sucking the goodness out of a worthy project like Angel Radio. Did you know that, after we have paid royalties to broadcast out-of-copyright songs, the cafe’ across the road then has to pay again for permission to have Angel Radio on their wireless for their customers. . . and if the customer happens to be a hairdresser who thinks “Oh that’s nice old music, I’ll put it on in my shop” they have to pay again too.
Yes, like many others we are campaigning against copyright extension - see our item here: http://www.radiocafe.co.uk/talk/archives/84
.
As I recall (i have not looked at it in a while) the two organisatons and also the MCPS recoup royalties for different things: eg broadcasting, publishing and “mechanical reproduction” and the definitions are wider than often thought. The fact that the public is involved is important also.
However they are not interested in arguments that you are only playing “out of copyright” material or perhaps even your own-self generated music. The approach is “you play, you pay” and they will enforce in court as several small businesses have found out.
Of course, being anonymous slows things down in terms of enforcment, but no proper station can run in that way.
RDS
I have a workmate who spent 6 months at the MCPS-PRS Alliance (now called PRS for Music, everything’s name changes these days). I’ll find out from him what his view is.
What’s true is that, like TV license inspectors, they are trigger-happy when it comes to litigating, but I don’t think they’ve fully sorted the area of internet regulation yet.
However, for Angel (and any BBC station), the DAB (or local FM) element puts it squarely into their heavy-handed domain, so yes you must pay the PRS (and PPL) or else.
But I reckon this could be challenged if you are playing only music which is clearly out of copyright. The societes are collecting royalties on behalf of musicians and composers. There are no royalties to collect if those musicians and composers’ rights have expired. But who is brave enough (or rich enough) to be the test case?
Incidentally, the PRS’s own site says this:
“Is there any music which isn’t covered by a licence from PRS for Music?
A licence from PRS for Music covers the majority of copyright music being played, but there is some music which is not covered by your PRS for Music licence, or for which you do not require a PRS for Music licence.
A licence from PRS for Music does not cover:
Music which is out of copyright. Please note that music, where the original composition is out of copyright, may be performed in a copyright arrangement and, in this case, a licence may be required. Details about the arrangement are normally available on the musical score or with the music recording you have purchased.
Copyright music where the rights holders have not assigned or licensed the performing rights to PRS for Music or to one of our overseas affiliates (whose rights we represent and control in the UK). To use this music, you may need to get permission from the rights holders directly, or the rights holder may have given a licence to a music service provider.
“Copyright-free” music where the music is in copyright but the rights holder does not require the user to obtain any additional licence. This is most common where copyright material is used for educational purposes.
Music which is specially written for dramatic performances, such as musicals, operas and ballets (also known as Grand Right works). To use this music, you need to get permission from the rights holder directly, which is usually the music publisher.
If you believe you may be using music which does not require a PRS for Music licence, you can call us for advice and further information about the music which is covered by our licence. If you wish to use music, which is advertised as not requiring a licence from PRS for Music, you should take reasonable steps to ensure that the music is correctly licensed. Please note that some music which is not controlled by PRS for Music may become controlled by PRS for Music, if the rights holder assigns their rights to PRS for Music or one of our affiliates at a later date”.
It is not a simple one this, and in most cases easier to just “pay and play”. Plus, if we are using recent CD recordings of such out of copyright material, then we close the loophole on ourselves I guess.
Many of the BBC’s own recordings will most likely be PRS-licence exempt. So it’s probably fair to say that such a station should be much cheaper to maintain than, say, BBC 6 Music or 1xtra.
What’s also probably true is that Colin Berry or Bill Rennells would be much cheaper to maintain for the BBC than, say, Chris Evans and Stuart Maconie. Although on merit as broadcasters, it should absolutely be the other way around.
I like the thought of asking Gillian Reynolds (see Comment 266) to take up our cause as she is well-respected by all sides. But wouldn’t she have to be a little careful of her own career as she is often employed as critic on Michael Ball’s show - at least I presume she is as I gave up on Ball months ago so I wouldn’t know if she ever appears on it. What about Parky himself as spokesman?
I did in fact speak directly to Parky a few years ago - lovely chap. He didn’t really declare an opinion (he’d had a couple at the time!), but certainly he is not afraid of expressing his views. We may be able to make contact with him - definitely a good idea, Eileen.
We’ve now started a separate Talk article on why we need BBC Eight Light - see our homepage. We’d appreciate your contributions to this, and please do continue to spread the word.
Thanks
Paul @ Radiocafe
I don’t know how many of you saw this article by Gillian Reynolds in The Telegraph, on radio for older listeners, which followed on from her one regarding the departure of Malcolm Laycock:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturecritics/gillianreynolds/6082727/Radio-review-Radio-2-does-more-than-its-rivals-for-older-listeners.html
Interesting, though I would challenge the premise of the heading regarding R2 doing more for its “older listeners”. Doing more for its “easy listeners” might be more to the point, as surely it’s the musical taste of the listener rather than his or her age that’s of importance.
Steve
It is with great sadness that I write to say that Malcolm Laycock died at home yesterday. He was a great advocate for our music, a genuine enthusiast who loved what he did, and a true professional in the way he did it. I know that many listeners who’d never met him (myself included, although we spoke often on the phone) felt they knew him personally, and those that did counted themselves lucky. He will be sadly missed.
Very sorry to hear that Barry. It was announced on Digital Spy this eve, but has now been confirmed by the BBC.
A valued and intelligent broadcaster and an acknowledged expert on the music. The world of real music and broadcasting will be the poorer for his passing.
Such sad news!!!
I agree with Barry and John’s comments entirely. I did indeed count myself very lucky to have met and chatted with him.
Hopefully a restospective is in order as he was a very rounded broadcaster on many other areas too.
RDS
I agree with the previous comments. The news of Malcolm’s passing will leave a very big hole in british broadcasting as well as an emptiness with his many fans young and mature. God Bless you Malcolm.
I had just heard the very sad news from Pete King (of the Big Band Buddies magazine). I had an email from him that Malcolm had told him recently about how depressed he was at being dismissed by the BBC and also losing his wife at around the same time.
So dreadfully sad. Hopefully all the good wishes and expressions of appreciation which he received were of some comfort to him. Such a a delightful personality and fount of knowledge with still so much to offer.
What can one say that hasn’t already been said?
Apart from listening to his radio programmes, I attended two Glenn Miller related concerts at which Malcolm was compere and subsequently emailed his radio programme to praise the way he’d handled the proceedings. I didn’t expect a reply at all and had I done so, I’d have perhaps been happy to have received an acknowledgement from his agent or producer, but Malcolm took the time to reply in person, which many others would not have done.
Strange that like Humph he should have died so soon after leaving his radio programme.
Malcolm will be greatly missed.
Steve
Tragic news about an excellent broadcaster, a respected authority and a fine human being. Malcolm will be sadly missed.
Very upsetting for me. I had hoped Malcolm Laycock might one day return to BBC Radio 2 but that’s not to be.
I corresponded with Malcolm Laycock and his producers for many years, making some contributions to the Sunday Night At Ten shows, and was privileged to meet Malcolm at an event when he unveiled Ambrose’s blue plaque at the May Fair Hotel some years ago. I had a drink will Malcolm afterwards, a supreme gentleman, an immensely knowedgeable and respected broadcaster.
John Wright
It is so depressing to receive this news. We started this thread sometime ago now and notwithstanding the odd digression the central theme revolved around the music of one show and the outstanding talent of its presenter. The show has been effectively taken away from us as we knew it and now we have lost the man that brought it to our homes every Sunday evening for many years.
There is of course a very personal loss here to all of Malcolm’s immediate family and we must remember that. I do though feel an inner loss in myself and to all other like minded individuals who over the life of this forum have expressed their appreciation of Malcolm’s work. I cannot but wonder about the real facts that lie behind all of what has transpired, however, it is of no real relevance now.
I am sure when we all hear some dance music at any time from now we will think of Malcolm and the show.
We will just remember him and remember him well.
Gary
Very sad news.
I’ve had a message from a friend who was contacted by Malcolm’s family (two sons).
Malcolm died while asleep and there was a health issue, a combination of pneumonia and septicaemia.
I’m really feeling quite depressed about Malcolm’s passing, he has done so much for jazz and swing music in this country, and could have continued to do much more, a set of CDs he had compiled were just re-issued and apparently a visit to California in a few days was already planned so he was continuing to work.
Terry Wogan paid tribute to Malcolm Laycock after the news bulletin this moring and played the Al Bowlly / Ray Noble “Goodnight Sweetheart”.
(35mins into the iplayer 10/11/09)
John Wright
Many thanks John for the info concerning Terry Wogan’s tribute to Malcolm. Can anybody tell me whether they have seen any printed obituaries to Malcolm in the Press yet (apart from those appearing online)?
Mike Martin
I understand that David Jacobs’ next programme will include a tribute.
Desmond Carrington included a touching tribute at the start of last night’s programme and played “My kind of music” by Lew Stone with Sam Browne. I have found two obituaries in today’ s papers, each with a photo and very full details - The Guardian by Peter Vacher and The Independent by Spencer Leigh. However I think these are both on-line.
I too am very very sad about Malcolm’s passing. if anything positive is to come out of this sad affair, it would be for Bob Shennan to appoint a new producer for the Sunday night at 10 slot, together with a presenter who is genuinely knowledgeable about dance and swing bands and has a good radio voice. This might persuade traditional listeners that he listens to criticism and can respond. Remember, Clare Teal is supposed to be a ’stand in’. If you have suggestions, I would urge you to send these to Bob Shennan. I’m honestly not sure who it should be; not Claire Teal, and not any other ‘celeb’. Maybe big band leader Jay Craig; he certainly has the knowledge, but maybe not the radio voice, I’m not sure.
ps. I’ve just chanced across Ms Teal’s web site, which includes a blog posted today, Weds 11th Nov. Is there a tribute to Malcolm? No, it is some meaningless commentary on her DIY efforts in the bathroom.
We are all very saddened to learn of Maclom’s passing. Given everything else that has happeneed this year, it is particularly upsetting news. It would be nice if the BBC could do something to pay a proper tribute to a man who contributed so much, and educated and entertained so many of us via his Radio London and Radio 2 shows.
Doug - we’d like to hope you are right, but given the events that led to Malcolm’s departure from the BBC, we suspect the job is Clare Teal’s if she wants it. But it is still a good idea to keep suggesting others who may be able to take forward the good work that Malcom did for so many years.
p.s. I’ve just gone onto Clare Teal’s blog and it has really annoyed me
I have also looked at her blog and am appalled at her insensitivity in allowing it to be posted with the date of 11th November, three days after Malcolm’s death. Her stupid “kookie” description of her bathroom re-vamp sticks in the craw.
It seems that her Sunday night programme will be a tribute to Malcolm.
I think it’s possible to post comments there, and if so I intend to!
Well someone’s now gone on there and said just that:
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=175514686&blogId=518032816
Yes - good for the chap called Brian in saying exactly that. I do not belong to Facebook so assume I cannot add my comment. However I shall submit my thoughts to Ms Teal via her Radio2 email address.
She also has a forum on her site, where I was going to leave a post but couldn’t be bothered. Her blog speaks volumes about her priorities as an artist - being “me, me, me”.
I personally think as a broadcaster you have an important and responsible role, and for her to not make tribute to Malcolm may have been merely an oversight; but given her position, and the date of her latest blog post (11 November), it is unforgiveable. As someone who runs this blog, it really isn’t that hard to update these things, and everyone here has taken the time to pay their respects to Malcolm.
It also cements my views of her that she is less interested in the music she presents and more in the fact that she is the presenter (otherwise why would she go on about her DIY exploits?).
You never got that impression with Malcolm Laycock or Alan Dell. They lived and breathed the music, knew so much, and presented in a way almost as though they were speaking to each of us individually. Whereas Clare can read a script quite well.
I’d like to say I am disappointed by Clare’s blog, but actually it is just about what I would expect.
I emailed Ms Teal via her Radio2 address as follows:
It is good to know that you will present a tribute to Malcolm on your programme next Sunday but please will you explain your blog entry, posted extremely insensitively on 11th November (Remembrance Day and only three days after his death) when all you could talk about was your bathroom?
I do not belong to Facebook so assumed I could not leave my comment there.
(NB I had meant to say MySpace not Facebook but they are all the same to me!)
As Radiocafe’s posting says, I’m disappointed but not surprised by Clare’s blog. The few blogs by various people that I’ve ever looked at seem to be based around banal drivel rather than anything of any substance, so I wouldn’t expect Clare’s to be any different.
In her defence I would suggest that perhaps the correct place for her acknowledgement of Malcolm’s passing is indeed her Radio 2 platform, through which Clare’s connection with Malcolm was, rather than her personal web presence.
Steve
A word of caution: please don’t let this become an anti-Clare Teal witch hunt! It does not befit reasonable people and may not further our cause anyway!
thanks
RDS
I agree with that sentiment, it is all too easy to get carried away. However I do still feel that she should have been aware of possible offence and made a special effort to edit it.
I had the following reply from Bob McDowall re Clare’s blog:
“The ‘blog’ on her website is the content of a weekly column she writes
for the Yorkshire Post. Although posted on 11th November this entry was
written several days before Malcolm Laycock passed away.
Clare has already been speaking to the Yorkshire Post about writing
something in tribute to Malcolm - they come from the same part of
Yorkshire and this would be very fitting.”
I was very sad to hear of Malcolm’s demise none of this is clare’s fault she was offered a job and took it (I expect at a larger salery than what Malcolm was getting) It is strange that the Beeb now say’s they were prepared to meet Malcolm’s demands with regard to salery but I’m sure that they were not prepared to give way with regard to the programme content. That fight had already been lost ! This does not change the fact that Clare is unsuited to the job and does not have the right type of voice for a radio presenter ( In my latter years I have hearing problems with speech fortunately not so much of a problem listening to good music) I can remember a time when the BBC’s requirement for clear speaking announcers was paramount and above just being a well known personality or a whitty character,peqple like Alan Dell,Brian Matthew,Tony Hall and of course the late great Malcolm Laycock,all these people researched thier subject matter and delivered the content in a clear and concise manner. In the recent Al Bowlly programme on BBC FOUR TV you could hear every word Malcolm spoke and understood the points he was making but Clare’s content was muffled and she stuttered making it almost impossible to understand the points she was trying to make - In my opinion she is far better at singing.Finally if you want good diction listen to Vera Lynn’s speaking voice and ‘boy’ could she sing. Jack A R
While I agree with Steve R that many of these blogs are complete drivel, and I think it is fair to say Clare’s may not be the most enlightening for fans of her music, that explanation is fair. It is her personal website after all, not her Radio 2 slot.
It is easy to make Clare a scape-goat, but I guess what we are all feeling is a reflection of our upset at what happend to poor Malcolm, many months ago and now exacerbated greatly by hearing this very sad news. It doesn’t help that Clare Teal was the choice that fits in with today’s Radio 2 ethos, not the person that Malcolm’s fans would have wanted. We didn’t want any replacement, and now Malcolm is with us no more, it makes that decision seem all the more misplaced.
We should, therefore, reserve judgment until after this weekend, although given the circumstances, one can’t help but feel that the best tribute the BBC could have paid to Malcolm was not to force him out of his job in the first place.
Clearly Clare cannot be held responsible for what the BBC did to Malcolm, which was disgraceful. I feel that this tribute show samcks more of crocodile tears than anything else. Were they serious about it, they could have asked Russell Davies or Michael Parkinson.
Reading the Obits about Malcolm’s salary request led me to make a Freedom of Information request from the BBC for the comparitive costs of presenting and producing the show when Malcolm was at the helm and the situation now.
Predicting they may plead confidentiality, I’ve said I would settle of a percentage difference.
I’m afraid I’m not convinced about Clare. She was a bolt on guest at sevaral of my Jazz Festivals a few years ago, when she was trying to make a name for herself. It was not a happy experience. She is a competent singer, who has written some songs, but she is not, in my opinion, a convincing jazz singer.
I agree with John; Clare has had ample opportunity to prove herself, but sadly I find her delivery quite insipid, and the content lacks any real depth. The BBC seems to think that because somebody is a singer, they’ll make a good music presenter. This is an extension of the supposition that because somebody is a good athlete, they’ll make a good sports commentator (remember Sally Gunnell!).
It will be interesting to know the comparative costs of producing the programme, assuming they’ll tell you, which I doubt. It would also be pertinent to enquire as to the comparative size of the audience. My guess is, cost up, audience down.
Intereseting angle: keep at it John, the truth will out!!
Barry: in some ways, i don’t want to have it confirmed that audience is down, if you see what i mean…….
RDS
I’m new to this fantastic site.
Like many others I complained to the BBC about the axing of the Dance Band section of Malcolm’s programme.
I feel that now Malcolm has sadly departed this life it will be OK to post here a copy of an email he sent to me only a few weeks ago that I would now like to share with you all.
Its made very clear that he did not want to leave the BBC & that conditions had become impossible. I will miss him dearly.
Thursday, 24 September, 2009 9:02 PM
From:
“Malcolm Laycock”
Dear Daniel
Many thanks for your very kind message.
Yes, I too am sad that I had to leave the programme. I didn’t want to leave. And you are quite right - it was not my decision to drop the British dance bands. I was ordered to. For the moment I shall let the dust settle and see what emerges….! I have no immediate future plans. But I am pleased that you enjoyed my programmes.
Best wishes
Malcolm Laycock
The best memorial we could have for Malcolm Laycock is for the Beeb to introduce a Radio programme dedicated to the dance bands. The 30-somethings running Radio2 should bear in mind that without the pioneering dance bands there would be no Strictly Come Dancing, currently BBC’s top-ratings show. RIP, Malcolm.
This has been posted on the British dance bands Yahoo group by Robin Cherry:
Malcolm Laycock`s funeral will be at the Eltham Crematorium at 1430 on Thursday 19th November. The family ask that no flowers be sent but please give donations to the Musician`s Benevolent Fund in Malcolm`s memory. The telephone number of the Funeral Directors is 0208 331 1111. The contact person there is I think Dean Wilson.
Referring back to 308, I’m quite amazed that Bob McDowell took it on himself to respond instead of leaving it to Clare Teal. Leaving that aside, his answer fails to meet the criticism, which is that no matter when it was written, it was posted on the website without regard to what had transpired in the meantime, or was taking place on that day.
Barry, as you know the BBC works in mysteious ways. Most of the presenters are NOT actual BBC employees, but freelance, and their BBC e-mails are read by producers first.
When I used to correspond with our dear Malcolm Layock I used to send messages to both his BBC address and his personal address. He would reply via his own e-mail and (most recently) Caroline Snooks used to reply from his BBC address.
John W
We’ve now started another thread to highlight the shameful treatment of Malcolm Laycock before his departure from the BBC - see homepage, or click here: http://www.radiocafe.co.uk/talk/archives/89.
Thanks
Paul @ Radiocafe
Here in the states we have a wonderful program that plays pop and jazz from the 1920’s and 1930’s on Sunday nights from 8 P.M until Midnight (eastcoast time). The show is on WFUV.ORG and is called “The Big Broadcast”. You will probaly have to go through the radio station to get to it but they also keep an archive of one weeks shows which you can access to get a taste of the music which is very similiar to what Alan Dell seemed to play. The host Rich Conaty is very knowledgeable of the band members and has a love for this music which comes through his broadcast.Please give it a try.!
Hello Bob
how wonderful to have a post from a fellow enthusiast from across the pond!
I’ll certainly give your recommendation a go!
thanks
RDS
Ronaldo……………
There is also a station which plays 1920’s and 30’s pop and jazz 24 hours a day 7 days a week called Radio Dismuke.You can find it at www.radiodismuke.com Scroll down to the picture of the old radio and click on it. If they give you an option I find the Loudcity version better. Don’t let the name of the network scare you ……….Hope you enjoy …..Bob
Bob
Welcome aboard! Am listening to The Big Broadcast now, and it is excellent. All I could do with now is a big breakfast to go with it!
Thanks for the tip on ths. We will also give Radio Dismuke a whirl too.
All the best
Paul @ Radiocafe
Well at least there were almost 20 min