Why we need BBC Eight Light
Posted by Radiocafé on 24 Nov 2009 at 11:49 am |
Category: 3. Light & Easy, 1. General Music
BBC radio currently fails to offer anything for a large and significant population: older listeners. While music preference should be independent of age, it is evident that the BBC provides handsomely for the youth audience: they get Radio 1, 1Xtra, 6 Music and the BBC Asian Network. And while Radio 2’s offering is aimed at the over-35s, much of the music offered is in fact aimed at attracting a younger audience. Much of it is completely unattractive to the over-70s.
What it does is cater only for a certain type of over 35. It will tell you that it knows of 60 year-olds who want to hear “The Killers”. But we know that a lot more absolutely do not want to. What does the BBC currently offer for the 70 year-old who wants to listen to Bing Crosby? Or to Duke Ellington? Or to Robert Farnon? Nothing.
If you don’t particularly like rock or pop, don’t necessarily want to listen to classical music, then quite simply BBC music radio offers nothing. Not even a few hours on Radio 2 every week. If offers absolutely, completely nothing.
Where will you find a regular supply of Frank Sinatra, Henry Mancini, Lionel Hampton and Ray Noble? Not on BBC national radio, (FM or DAB). It provides a minute, and excellent, selection on BBC local radio. What about commercial radio, then? Nothing is offered there at all. The few weak attempts to do so have all faltered. Where you can find this music offered properly is in the States, which (unlike the BBC) seems to value its musical heritage.
Is there really an audience for such music, you may ask? Quite simply, yes there is. Take a quick look through the pages here and you will see thousands of posts from disgruntled listeners who are being offered nothing. Read the letters page of the Robert Farnon society magazine, and you will see the same. Check out other message boards, and the message is consistent. Many older listeners do not perhaps frequent these message boards and social networking sites as much as the younger generation, but this doesn’t mean they are not there. Nor that their opinion doesn’t count.
Plus it is not just older listeners who are being denied this sort of music. There are many of us who are under 40 who would love to hear some Vic Damone, some Count Basie, some Julie London. And there are many of us who are under 20 who may never obtain any exposure to this wonderful music at all.
Not so very long ago, the BBC had an entire station dedicated to light and easy music (up to 1990 - this was called BBC Radio 2). The previous incarnation of the network was even named after this type of music (the Light Programme). Yes, times change perhaps but good music doesn’t die out unless you want it to. The BBC is not serving us properly by failing to provide certain types of music for a large portion of the nation.
So the time has surely come and the BBC cannot overlook us any longer. To make life easier for all of you BBC executives out there, here is an outline of the sort of schedule that such a station could provide:
§ Throughout the day, some mainstream shows featuring a mix of American popular song, some big bands, some dance bands, some light jazz, some of the modern “crooners” (for want of a better term). The sort of shows that the American “Music Of Your life” network plays.
§ How about some repeats of “Music While You Work” throughout the day? Evenings could be dedicated to more specialist shows: jazz, dance bands, big bands, jump jive, profiles of leading singers, and repeats of classic Radio 2 shows, such as “Thanks For The Memory” and the many half hour recordings from over the years. The BBC is able to recycle old comedy shows on Radio 7, so it should be able to do the same on our station.
§ At the weekend, how about some concerts and live performances from years bygone? We would love to hear some of the old BBC Radio Orchestra performances, or a 1970s Tony Bennett concert, or some live jazz from the 1960s. In fact, there is so much that a BBC station like this could do, with its vast archive of good music.
The sad fact is that the BBC has probably dumped much of its light and dance band music shows of old. But there are enthusiasts out there who retain top quality recordings of these shows. We have around 200 or so perfect recordings of Alan Dell’s Dance Band and Big Band Shows and about the same again of Sounds Easy. We have hundreds of the BBC Radio Orchestra Show recordings (these present trickier re-broadcasting issues for the BBC, given the number of musicians who appear, but the legal issues the BBC will raise can always be overcome). We have lots of other shows too.
Light Music expert Brian Reynolds has masses of archive material of Music While You Work and other recordings. The Robert Farnon Society also has a decent archive of old shows. The BBC has relied on the public to supply lost copies of Dads Army, so it could easily turn to us for its radio heritage.
These are just a few ideas, and we are very keen to develop this idea with yours too.
Come on BBC, the time has surely come for you to give us Radio Eight/Light Radio. “Eight Light” even works quite well as its name.
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(4 votes, average: 4 out of 5)
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What an excellent idea! I realise that the kinds of music under discussion are not enjoyed solely by the over seventies - I am 62 and have succeeded in enthusing teenagers in dance band music - but the fact remains that the senior demographic (sorry!) is a growing audience and the BBC must realise this. Full marks to Radiocafe for making such an excellent case!
Keep up the good work. Who knows? Somebody out there, up there, or in there may be listening, but let’s not hold our breath!
Indeed it is sad that the BBC has turned its back on light orchestral music.
Personally as a singer I counted myself extremely fortunate to have been a part of the good old days, the days when BBC radio 2 nurtured young people with talent and ambition.
It would begin with an audition. If you passed the audition you would be given the opportunity to do a broadcast. If all went well you would be asked back. In a nutshell that’s what happened to me. Now 50 years on I look back and thank all those wonderful musicians, arrangers, technicians and producers who allowed me to be included in a very special profession.
A typical BBC Maida Vale recorded session would be 3 hours, 5 songs, with a twenty minute break in the tennis club for light refreshment! Which included lots of laughs, listening to the latest musician’s jokes then back to work?
Work! It certainly was not! It was dreams come true! Sadly like most good things in life it came to an end.
Fortunately for me I have lots of happy memories, trips around the world singing with wonderful orchestras, courtesy of BBC Radio2. I could go on and on, so I will.
Whose idea was it at the BBC to stop helping talented young people perform live on radio with orchestras? Whose idea was it to give someone the job of feeding a computer with the permutations of well known - and only well known - frequently heard recordings? ‘Stop moaning Mike!’ ‘I’m not, I had a great time!’
Let’s make a difference, let’s put our heads together and come up with something to help talented musicians, singers, arrangers, songwriters who would like make music / songs that there grandchildren will be able to sing-a-long to. *rappers need not apply. Should I have said that? Too late!
Is there someone out there with a few million Pounds, Euros or Yen to spare to fund an independent radio station?
Come to think about it, how about BBC Radio 8?
Thank you Radiocafe,
Mike Redway
Good to hear from Mike again with the memory of all that fine BBC session work.
Yes to BBC8 in principle of course , but the delivery model might have to change. I think an archive resource would be a smart move, eg for the expanded academic jazz world (who could take a stake in it ). I believe the BBC is developing a public access archive which will eventually be online (John Tusa started this when he was an executive ?). Outlets like Amazing Radio are yielding surprisingly melodic material-it is out there sometimes in unexpected guises, and I think the implosion of big record companies etc is going to help this along if we bide our time. I had a long chat with a 20 year old yesterday who knew about Jaco Pastorius and Tony Bennett. And as TB would say, its perhaps about caring about the music rather than the ‘image’.
Have you seen the latest Radio 2 initiative?
The Great British Songbook, sounds promising even if a steal from the Great American Songbook.
So what do we get; They only want the best songs post 1960!
That’s leaves out Noel Coward, Ivor Novelo, Vivian Ellis, Harry Parr-Davies annd many more.
What do you think?
I think it is all too typical of the station these days.
Given that, by the Great American Songbook, we tend to mean the exact opposite (i.e. songs pre-1960), it comes almost as a bit of an insult.
I hope this doesn’t catch on, as you are absolutely right Howard, it is all wrong that the so-called “Great British Songbook” ignores individuals such as those you have named. I wonder if they could have got away with this when Hubert Gregg was broadcasting not so long ago on Radio 2, given his contributions to the GB Songbook (not least of all “Maybe It’s Because I’m A Londoner”)? How we miss Hubert and his wonderful broadcasts. Actually, I suspect the current crop would have cared little about the opinions of Mr Gregg, as they clearly don’t care for the many of us who appreciated the touch of class he brought to the station.
At least we have coined the Campaign For Real Music to mean ALL music of quality, not limited to the “I think I’m trendy” mid-life crisis types who run Radio 2 these days.
We’re Going To Hang Out The Washing On The Seege Fread Line. (Hope that’s the correct spelling?) Ask them who wrote this song and what did it mean!
Red Sails In The Sun Set, My Prayer. Let’s send them a list of songs pre 1960! It would make a nice 6 week series. They could invite my freind 99 years young, Alfie Pearson. Alfie is the other half of Bob & Alf Pearson. They were good freinds of a certain Mr Jimmy Kennedy!!
We all know who could present the series.
Mike.
It seems to me a shame that whilst the singers and DJs of yesterday are remembered,few people seem to be able to remember the names of the many orchestra leaders, pianists, organists etc. who were household names on radio forty or fifty years ago, some of whom had broadcasting careers spanning thirty or more years - Names like Cecil Norman, Bernard Monshin, Ronnie Munro, Jimmy Leach, George Scott-Wood, Harold Collins and others whose broadcasting careers ended suddenly when the Light Programme became Radio Two and the BBC struggled to find enough air-time for their own contracted staff orchestras, let alone outside contributors. My website www.mastersofmelody.co.uk attempts to rectify this with articles about these forgotten artists -even including actual programme listings and sound clips.
As stated in the main article about BBC Eight Light ( a marvellous idea if it could come to fruition) you could indeed rebroadcast daily programmes of ‘Music While You Work.’ I’ve got nearly 600 of them -it was my favourite programme and I have even written a book about it (see my website). I have given about 40 to the BBC Sound Archives, not they are ever likely to be aired! I also have many editions of other instrumental programmes such as ‘Bright and Early’,'Morning Music’ ‘Melody on the Move’,'Marching and Waltzing’,'Grand Hotel’ etc. I would happily put complete programmes on my website but for the fact that I would probably find myself falling foul of the law! If a radio station such as ‘Angel Radio’ would really like to rebroadcast these programmes I could certainly provide some! Although I get many requests for copies of programmes, I find that the best way to make them available to people is to regularly deposit them with ORCA ( Old-time Radio programme Collectors Association) which is a lending library, enabling members to borrow recordings for three weeks, (again, full details on my website).
As a teenager in the fifties, I became hooked on light orchestras and dance bands - I was never a great fan of vocalists. I also tended to avoid record programmes as I preferred to hear the hits of the day played instrumentally as such programmes seemed much more real - indeed most of them were live ! I also took the view that I could always purchase a record that I liked. whereas I could not purchase a ‘Music While You Work’!
Actually, back in the fifties, record programmes were very much in the minority and certain daily programmes ( Morning Music,Bright and Early,for example) would have a record programme perhaps once or twice a week, mainly in order to keep within the shows’ budget! There were few DJs, as in those days, it was often the role of announcers to present record shows. Unlike today, the presenter was not regarded as more important than the artists he/she introduced !
Although not everything that ‘Radiocafe’ promotes is to my own personal taste, I applaud its aims to provide radio listeners with ‘grown-up’ material. Radio Two is a mere shadow of the wonderful Light Programme. I wish I had a time-machine that would take me back fifty years !
Sorry Jimmy, RIP, I should have googled it first!
We’re going to hang out the washing on the Siegfried Line / …
ingeb.org/songs/weregoin.html - 5k -
As Howard said above, Radio 2’s Great British Songbook project made no reference to songwriting before 1960…. but after just a few complaints on the R2 froum the producers have back-pedalled with
“The Great British Songbook is not restricted solely to the Sixties to the present, but we had to start somewhere. We thought that the 1960s was an appropriate initial start point since that particular decade saw the rise and ultimate world domination of songwriters such as Lennon and McCartney, Jagger and Richards and The Bee Gees etc.
“However our ultimate aim is not to ignore the decades before. The Great British Songbook is an ongoing project and so over the coming months and years we intend to reflect the period pre-1960… so please continue to suggest your pre-1960 British songwriters here.”
and how nice of them, they’ve now created a forum thread for pre-1960s songwriters.
John
Sorry to repeat myself - these are on the “Why the BBC should be ashamed” thread as well but seem to belong on both.
For those of you who have given up on Digital Spy’s constant bickering -
My 1st posting:
I think that Radio 2 is NOT fulfilling its Service Licence Agreement because it is not providing popular music of enough variation to cover the many specialist, albeit minority, genres. Pop music there is in plenty but it overlaps far too much with Radio 1 and the commercial stations. Radio 2 should be giving us music which is not available elsewhere. A great job is done by Desmond Carrington, Russell Davies, Alan Titchmarsh and David Jacobs and the occasional series e.g. Benny Goodman and the current Dance Band series. But where else can we go to hear good, popular (as opposed to pop) music? Radio 2 may pride itself on being the most listened to station but it is placing quantity above quality.
Personally I enjoy a wide range of different types of music from jazz, big band, 50s/60s pop, 30s/40s dance bands, musicals, ballet, light (Eric Coates, Robert Farnon, Leroy Anderson etc.), music hall, the Great American Songbook, Gilbert & Sullivan and even (a little!) opera. This is because I grew up with the Light Programme which was on most of the time at home and I couldn’t help being exposed to all sorts of different types of music. The BBC was doing its job then to ”inform, educate and entertain”. The other BBC radio stations seem to do this, but Radio 2 seems to have lost its way.
My 2nd posting:
The Office for National Statistics states as follows:
(1) The population of the UK is ageing. Over the last 25 years the percentage of the population aged 65 and over increased from 15 per cent in 1983 to 16 per cent in 2008, an increase of 1.5 million people in this age group.
(2) The fastest population increase has been in the number of those aged 85 and over, the ’oldest old‘. In 1983, there were just over 600,000 people in the UK aged 85 and over. Since then the numbers have more than doubled reaching 1.3 million in 2008.
Perhaps the problem with Radio 2 is that it is aiming at a target audience aged 35 and over. Bearing in mind the UK’s ageing population, that covers 2.5 - 3 generations. I am sure it is true that many 60 year olds enjoy and are happy with the current Radio 2 output but these days the age of 60 is only two thirds of the way into one’s life. Where can people in their 70s and 80s go to find the sort of light music they would enjoy? Shouldn’t BBC Radio be catering for them too? Apart from Carrington, Titchmarsh, Davies and Jacobs plus a handful of other evening programmes, there is not much else, and they are likely to be at home all day and probably, I say probably, not internet-savvy.
This is a polite request for ideas and information.
My 3rd posting:
Yes, the market has to be taken into account but on the other hand people up to the age of 75 pay the same licence fee as everyone else (and have done so all their lives or since licensing began) so should be considered an important, if minority, group.
I should also have added in my 23:44 post of yesterday that if us “oldies” (I’m 67) were given our kind of music at some time during the day, you could well find younger people tuning in out of curiosity or by mistake and suddenly thinking “Hey - I like that! Why have I never heard that before?“
This would not turn them off their usual music of choice but could make them aware of the wealth of good popular music of years gone by which didn’t succumb to the “hear it, enjoy it for a while then throw it away to make room for the next new fashion.”
Well - it’s a thought.
I heartily agree. As stated in my earlier post, Radio 2 is almost devoid of instrumental programmes. In the 50s and 60s there were many (mostly live) programmes featuring bands and orchestras. As a teenager I was hooked on them. My website www.mastersofmelody.co.uk. profiles many of these combinations and lists actual programme details as well as lots of sound clips from the orchestras in question (taken from actual broadcasts).
Amazingly, it is 14 years since we last heard piano recitals on Radio Two. Surely the BBC could afford that. For decades now the same mindless rubbish has been churned out by the BBC. It seems that it is unfashionable to have anyrhing resembling a tune ! I now rarely listen to Radio 2 - all the music that I want to hear is on my collection of tapes and discs.
I feel strongly that the BBC are in breach of their responsibilities as broadcasters, by largely ignoring the generation that grew up with them. Whilst it is true that certain broadcasters such as Titchmarsh and Jacobs do cater for those with more than one brain cell, these are record programmes and do not employ studio musicians. They are also in the evening - daytime transmissions
being a barren wilderness of banality.
Brian
I have just given your website a whirl. Fascinating histories of the band leaders and delightful clips evoking a more musical past.
I used to work in a public library and looked forward to my occasional mornings in an upstairs office with the window open so that we could listen to MWYW coming from the factory next door.
I’ll listen to more when time allows. I work from home but these message boards are addictive!
Eileen
Thank you for taking the trouble to visit my website. I thought it might bring back some happy memories to people of our age group.
I’ve heard several stories of how people tried to catch MWYW - including school pupils who were allowed to listen if they didn’t take their mid-morning break!
I recall that when I first started work (in an office), I used to have a portable radio concealed on my person, with an earphone on a lead coming out of my collar ! I got rumbled eventually, of course !
Do visit my site again, won’t you ! One person has been into it nearly 40 times in the last eight days - transpires he was one of the original MWYW contributors !
Nice memories of which you can immediately see incomprehension of the ususal suspects. Can I make an interim reccomedation, which is on in the background as I type? It’s ‘Dinner Jazz’(7-10) on Jazz fm www.jazzfm.com -Sarah Vaughan, Take 6, Harold Land, Elaine Elias etc etc. As well as presenting the greats, I think you might agree that it demionstrates modern musicianship doesnt totally disdain classy and mellow.Presenting at the mo is Bob Sinfield, once one of the scurrilous sketch writers on R4’s ‘Week Ending’.
www.jazzfm.com
Nice memories of which you can immediately sense the incomprehension of the ususal suspects. Can I make an interim reccomendation, which is on in the background as I type? It’s ‘Dinner Jazz’(7-10) on Jazz fm www.jazzfm.com -Sarah Vaughan, Take 6, Harold Land, Elaine Elias etc etc. As well as presenting the greats, I think you might agree that it demionstrates modern musicianship doesnt totally disdain classy and mellow.Presenting at the mo is Bob Sinfield, once one of the scurrilous sketch writers on R4’s ‘Week Ending’.
www.jazzfm.com